MVP's new driver -- Volt

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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby jubuttib » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:41 am

JR wrote:
jubuttib wrote:The Comet is hugely gyroscopic. It's a fairly deep profile disc, the flight plate isn't particularly thick and to the extent I can measure it with my calipers it's a whopping 4-5 mm bigger in diameter in Z and ESP than the Axis, even though according to the specs they both should be identical in diameter (they probably certified it when using a baseline plastic that had a lot of shrinkage). That's about the same difference as between normal small and large diameter discs. A large part of why large diameter discs fly so much more neutral than or at least have slower movements than smaller diameter mids is the bigger diameter, and the Comet is the largest diameter mid I've ever seen (apart from Condors and stuff like that). Of course the shape is the dominant factor, but the size is a major point too.
Hmm a girl i know said it's 90 % size and 10 % shape :-D
Might be if you're throwing it around that much.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JHern » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:43 pm

jubuttib wrote:Wouldn't it also affect how long and fast the disc will keep spinning? The difference is immense between rim-weighted butterfly yoyos and center-weighted imperial yoyos, with proper ball bearing it can be along the lines of a minute or two of spin time.


JHern wrote:...
6) Spin rate, w, is imparted to the disc by the thrower. Factors affecting spin are a combination of grip and throwing mechanics. Spin rate is dissipated by the axial resistance torque, which is a poorly constrained function of spin rate. The rate of slowing of spin rate is inversely proportional to the disc moment of inertia.
...


Addendum: The amount spin down comes into play late in the flight. Every Ion I've thrown hyzers out reliably at the end of the flight, while most Wizards I've thrown finish straight (have to get the nose way up to stall-hyzer). This is the opposite of what you would predict if spin down was an important factor. That's one of the reasons I think the aerodynamical properties of the disc are more important than the gyroscopics (at least for discs that are already fairly gyroscopic, like the Wizard).
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby jubuttib » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:11 pm

JHern wrote:
jubuttib wrote:Wouldn't it also affect how long and fast the disc will keep spinning? The difference is immense between rim-weighted butterfly yoyos and center-weighted imperial yoyos, with proper ball bearing it can be along the lines of a minute or two of spin time.


JHern wrote:...
6) Spin rate, w, is imparted to the disc by the thrower. Factors affecting spin are a combination of grip and throwing mechanics. Spin rate is dissipated by the axial resistance torque, which is a poorly constrained function of spin rate. The rate of slowing of spin rate is inversely proportional to the disc moment of inertia.
...


Addendum: The amount spin down comes into play late in the flight. Every Ion I've thrown hyzers out reliably at the end of the flight, while most Wizards I've thrown finish straight (have to get the nose way up to stall-hyzer). This is the opposite of what you would predict if spin down was an important factor. That's one of the reasons I think the aerodynamical properties of the disc are more important than the gyroscopics (at least for discs that are already fairly gyroscopic, like the Wizard).
My experience with IONs vs. Wizards is the opposite, though the newer IONs fade almost as harshly as the Wizards I've thrown (in new condition).
Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JR » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:29 pm

Jub i just studied with her no wiggling of jiggly bits was involved :-)

I have the same experience with jub about the Wizards fading and Ions do vary. Milky Ions fade obviously less than Wizards but clear Ions differ and they do fade but only almost as much (70-80% of sideways motion) as the Wizard. Few discs vary as much as Wizards so that ain't such a great comparison tool. I'd like to throw a no fade Wiz. And i mean no fade or less fade than clear or even better milky Ion. And i don't mean so low apexes to not start the fade at all. Same apex height.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JHern » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:32 pm

jubuttib wrote:
JHern wrote:...Addendum: The amount spin down comes into play late in the flight. Every Ion I've thrown hyzers out reliably at the end of the flight, while most Wizards I've thrown finish straight (have to get the nose way up to stall-hyzer). This is the opposite of what you would predict if spin down was an important factor. That's one of the reasons I think the aerodynamical properties of the disc are more important than the gyroscopics (at least for discs that are already fairly gyroscopic, like the Wizard).
My experience with IONs vs. Wizards is the opposite, though the newer IONs fade almost as harshly as the Wizards I've thrown (in new condition).


It depends which ones you throw. I admit that I haven't thrown a lot of Ions, but I've thrown every kind of Wizard ever made (even prototype plastics that never made the market). The older circle-tooled medium Wizards were the most over-stable, but the more recent soft, super soft, and super stupid soft Wizards beat in as very straight finishing discs. Put them on an anhyzer, and they'll anhyzer all the way to the ground. The Ions I've thrown all had a bit of flex in them, finishing with a decent amount of fade. The Ion is also faster, and I didn't understand why that was the case (was almost thinking the smooth plastic in the flight plate exhibited less skin friction) until reading the PDGA specs, and seeing that the Wizard is slightly thicker in profile than the Ion.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Wyno » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:30 pm

I sense a bit of confirmation bias on both sides here... :)
JHern: "In science, you move closer to the truth by seeking evidence to the contrary" (only partly true, but whatever). It seems you have already tried to do this, and failed - after all, MVP never claimed increased gyroscopics trumped all other factors, and you've admitted there might be some slight effect?

For the record:
  1. I think shape and grip is hugely more important than any gyroscopic effect by overmolding, but all MVP's discs seem (in my subjective experience :wink: ) to fight changes in angle and to be noticably straighter than comparable discs,
  2. While I am in the "Ions are straighter than wizards"-camp, Wizards become straighter than Ions with a bit of seasoning IMO, and later runs of Ions have a pretty hard but very late fade if given enough height.
  3. I think the different opinions about wizards/ion like in the latest posts are probably mostly due to grip-related issues - making a difference as to how much spin you can impart on the disc (some people seem to have very distinct preferences in this, I find it plausible that dry/moist skin makes a difference)

Also, I think all this discussion about overmolding and gyroscopics should be moved to the general MVP thread or to it's own thread... not much about the Volt in here.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby discspeed » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:17 pm

Great article!^^^
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:39 am

Ions definitely fade less hard than the old, good wizards.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby cubeofsoup » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:01 am

Came here to read about the Volt, all I see is Wizard vs Ion...
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Jesse B 707 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:26 am

Well, that's because nobody has a Volt to talk about (other than our resident company shills...and trust me, if you ask them, it is like every other disc in it's category...but it does everything a little bit better.)
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby JHern » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:18 pm

Yeah, Jesse is right, we are all very curious about the actual Volt, vs the theoretical Volt. But since they haven't released the actual Volt yet, we are compelled to talk about the theoretical Volt.

Their website says they are still working out the production, and they won't release it until they are done tweaking it. I think this is a good thing, patience should be rewarded.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby jubuttib » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:25 pm

JHern wrote:Their website says they are still working out the production, and they won't release it until they are done tweaking it. I think this is a good thing, patience should be rewarded.
It is. They've done it with every other disc release so far, and it's worked almost perfectly. No matter what anyone thinks of the discs and technology, they've got consistency up to a level the others can't even dream of.
Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Leopard » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:59 am

Jesse B 707 wrote:Well, that's because nobody has a Volt to talk about (other than our resident company shills...and trust me, if you ask them, it is like every other disc in it's category...but it does everything a little bit better.)

i think i'm still the only one in possession of a Volt. in my tests it is exactly like every other disc in its category... no more no less. it is sitting there doing nothing, having never been thrown. it looks just like a regular driver sitting there, but has a black ring. sometimes i flip it upside down to sort pocket change, just so i can put it through its paces. it holds coins just like all my other drivers, no better or worse. i hope this review has been helpful!
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby Wyno » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 am

^^^ Post of the day.
*on knees, begging: "Could you please spare us some profile pics?" ;)
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Re: MVP's new driver -- Volt

Postby discspeed » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:32 am

The Volts that I have thrown were like long fairway drivers. In my limited experience with them they were flying more or less like my yellow champystar PDs, which are straighter (more hss, less lss) than most other PDs. It was an easy disc to throw hyzer and get a pure hyzer, throw flat and get straight with late fade, and throw anny and get S turns. I didn't throw any other drivers alongside it and there were no marked distances, so I can't say much more other than that it was pretty point and shoot. The protos I threw were run on the old machine, and the actual run will be on new equipment, so that could make a difference in how they end up.
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