The Myth of Disc Pivot

[Blake_T]

with disc:

[soupdeluxe]

Hey Blake
Went out and tried the MB inside out throw again this morning. Had great results as long as I did not come into the pocket too hot. I think the reason I thought that this method did not punish early shouder turn as bad is bringing it in this way I don't hit my left side when I turn early. It does seem easier to correct though. What I like about this also is if I bring it in slow from outside in I can really for the first time feel a large abrupt direction change when the arm chops. I am also holding the disc tighter aka no loose pivot. It does feel as though I can't get my arm moving as quickly or fluidly but I cannot argue with my results. I don't need to get my arm moving as quick into the pocket. I think you have also said early arm speed is overrated the speed out is the real deal. I hope one day to get this through my thick skull. I heard somewere that golf is mostly played in the 6 inches between your ears and I believe it. I think that one of my biggest enemies is trust and confidence. I field throw allot and play pretty sparingly. I know how far I can throw distance wise in my field but when I step up at a course to a hole that I can reach I think to myself there is no way I can get there unless I put a little mustard on it. This almost always results in early release so next hole I try even harder. Anyway the diagrams have spoken to me in a way words have not. Thank you.
SD

[Blake_T]

Thanks for the feedback, sd.

The thing that happens is a physics trick. The abrupt directional change causes the disc edge to pull around the turn and makes it think its got an angular velocity based on the radius of the blue circle.

You really dont have to move fast, just have to make sure to hang onto it all the way. You can make the disc leave faster than your arm was moving.

[ELItheICEman]

This thread is gold. Thanks Blake, I'll be putting this to work the next time I hit the practice field!

[Blake_T]

Thanks, eli.


Something i noticed is that most of the very long golf-shot pros generally have some form of enlarged radius circle caused by their flare out (rooted in body positions and entry angles).

[seabas22]

Something i noticed is that most of the very long golf-shot pros generally have some form of enlarged radius circle caused by their flare out (rooted in body positions and entry angles).

Talking about body positions I think most players struggle to just get their body out of the way of momentum. They never pivot or clear into the backswing and/or start too early with the hips and shoulders and lose posture. Maintaining good width between the upper arm and the chest about 90 degrees or better throughout the throw is critical to snap. When the upper arm collapses too tight to the chest and they never get the elbow forward of the shoulder so they drastically reduce the power pocket or kill it completely.

Your graphs illustrates this well how Dan's reachback is wider and comes in maintaining better width of the upper arm from the chest and finishing wide. Barry Shultz is very prominent with the wide backswing. Get Bubba Watson Wide! I think what your illustration lacks is typically the shoulder spinner reaching back around more than the target line with the arm so the arc begins from the start of the downswing.

[soupdeluxe]

Hey Blake
I am still working on this with good if not great results. I got a Roc out to 290 a few times now and am pleased as punch. I was wondering if you could clarify something for me. You mentioned you don't need to bring the disc in fast to the pocket you just need to hang on and then support it with the following quote.
Holding on from the critical point to the ideal release point has some tricks to it. The "key turn" of the wrist to the forward/down position helps hang on without adding grip pressure (it changes the ergonomics). What exactly do you mean by " key turn of the wrist"? I interpret this as wrist opens from neutral to past and then you move your hand to angle downward? I'm curious how this strengthens grip without adding grip pressure. I have not felt this but I may not awareness to feel this at this point. I also have been getting releases off my middle finger a little more often? Thanks
SD
PS This whole going from a small radius and flaring out to a large radius and what that does to disc flight and speed is so cool. It makes it easy to feel, still a challenge to execute consistantly but easier to troubleshoot. I know I'm gushing but I feel as though I am not guessing anymore. I picture the rail and try to make my hand follow it and hang on till the end.

[Blake_T]

Soup: depeinging upon your form and hand size you may or may not be doing this. Many large handed throwers talk a lot about tumb pinch or thumb push. Basically, as you pass the critical point you want to hold your thumb down and push your thumb forward (this does not mean to point e thumb lower). The end result is a small rotation of the forearm that helps you hold on more easily and is equivalent to the "wrist breaking" portions of a golf or baseball swing.

To understand this: fill a water bottle about 35-40% full. Hold the bottle like you're reaching back with it and the bottom of the bottle is the bottom of the handle. (you will need to tilt it upwards slightly). Thr water should be settled at the bottom of the bottle. Slowly trace the rail. The water should stay in the bottom of the bottle.

As you approach critical point start increasing speed. As you enter hit territory the water should abruptly shift (all of the water at once) to the top of the bottle.

If the water splashes out of control, you moved your arm faster than the bottle's center of gravity moved.

What you are going for is a very abrupt "crash" where all the water shifts to the front of the bottle with no rebound splash. To achieve this with a good pace you'll find you have to rotate your forearm a little as it enters half-hit territory. As you work on that, pay attention to your thumb and you will see what i was talking about.

[Bradley Walker]

Blake is right...

Here's my take on it.

The pivot is a the thing you are TRYING to make happen. It's the release of the head of the bat, the release of the shaft in golf... Both points of maximum extension where all the levers line up.

Only, in disc golf we let go of the bat at the hit (which in all sports occurs before maximum extension). So we never actually reach that point... But we still need to try to attain it.

[soupdeluxe]

Blake
Been doing the water bollle drill. You can really tell when your arm moves faster than the bottles center of gravity. I find when I do my thumb/forearm and don't violate the center of gravity I can get the water to go from bottom to top with minimal rebound. I take it though you want the water to act as though it is a solid once it hits the end. I was not doing this during my throws, at least conciously. I have given it a whirl during my last few sessions so we are at that awkward doesnt feel right stage. More fun to work on. Thanks for the tip and example
SD

[Blake_T]

cool. let me know how things go. it is interesting at how much you have to control the pace to stay in control of the water inside, isn't it?

[archimedesjs]

I have an issue with the whole "hand not being loose" during the pivot idea. I keep the disc very loose in my hand during the run up, and all the way into the power pocket. I do not grip down tight until the disc has already begun to pivot around my index finger knuckle, and thumb. I actively accelerate through that pivot, then pinch down hard as I begin to open my shoulders(grip is close to 3-4o'clock). I'm not a big man, I weigh about 140lbs, and I'm not a natural athlete, but I'm getting 400-425' throws with a teebird, 450-475' throws with a force(no turn, pure hyzer), and 500'+ with nukes, destroyers, and blizzard discs. I have 2 questions, are the distances indicative of "half-hitting" or "fully-hitting" it? Why is an active disc pivot not something to seek out? My body mechanics are atrocious. I do not follow through with a heel pivot, and I jam my hips, but I have a firm enough grasp on the timing of that loose pivot around my index finger knuckle, that I'm able to hit the above distances with very little run-up. I know they're not record setting throws or anything, but the final revelation that got me to those distances WAS the loose hand, disc pivot. I personally feel that it is all that is needed for a long throw, but that seems to be the opposite of what's being said. When I do the water bottle drill, it stays at the bottom the entire time.

[JR]

That certainly is good performance. I don't have enough squeeze strength the hold on to 4 o'clock normally. It may be due to subconscious loosening to protect the damaged arm too. I top out at way shorter distances. Half hits or less come to a large degree from too little grip power. Mechanics and timing sure matter too. Getting the disc to rip out late is the goal. If you have good enough mechanics and enough gripping power to get 500' with a partially correct form fixing the rest should be easier than getting to where you are now so who knows where your true potential lies? Higher that's for sure. Keep on gripping but do you follow the rail like Dan does? If not that's something to try. If the discs don't slip before 4 o'clock and the full hit zone you're golden. Add a follow through to that with a clean pivot and no hip jamming and your health should be preserved while throwing even farther. Good job!

[soupdeluxe]

Hey Blake
So I just finished watching a vid on ytube called DGM95 pro player clinic at the 2011 PDFO. Feldberg talks about how 95% of players take the disc off the intended line at the chop. I note that diagram 1 average/good keeps the disc on line throughout. On MBs throw the disc leaves the line at the chop and returns at the end. My question is this is MB really off line or is he getting his leg/hip out of the way and therefore able to keep it on line? My other thought is MBs rail you show is a distance rail instead of a golf shot rail? At standstill I can really feel the chop or flare and my disc is off line at this point and if I do what I am supposed to I can hang on long enough to get it back on line. Or is Feldbergs rail completely different? Thanks
SD

[JR]

Feldy preaches straight line pulling. It is good for accuracy and consistency. You can learn anything. Straightening the elbow will make an arc if the rest of the body doesn't work in unison with it. Unison is good for control shots. I am injured on sick leave so i haven't been able to test the tip from Blake to not let the elbow shop straight prior to turning the shoulders if i interpreted him correctly. That might create more power because i have grip strength issues half hitting at best. So some experimentation is due and i recommend the same.