The Myth of Disc Pivot

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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Blake_T » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:49 pm

Arch: i dont tell people to try to initiate a loose pivot because 99% of players will not be able to hang on beyond the critical point.

I am like you in that i can initiate a loose pivot but time the grip pressure to tug the pivot harder that way. You are the exception and not the rule :) i have worked with a few players that were failing at drills because of this.

The thing i have come to learn is that it is not the pivot as much as it is the raw "edge weight" (aka the weight of the hammer's head) that is really being forcibly manipulated here. This explains why it is still possible to snap without extending the wrist as long as the relative positions of the forearm line up with the body positions and timing.

As i have said with all of these things, im not preaching a fixed action, only teaching a particular feeling that is unque to snap-based throws. That feeling can be achieved in many different ways, none of which are wrong, some of which are easier to learn, some are more consistent, some are stronger, etc

Based upon the distances you listed, you are on the cusp. If your wing span is under 5'10" you are probably full hitting. If your wing span is 6'3" or higher, you are likely closer to a half hit.

Try getting the water to shift to the front of the bottle, it may help boost your d another 30' or so.

Sd: with the rail method, if you hold onto it beyond the critical point the disc leaves when one of 3 things happen:
1. Your speed dramatically slows down
2. Your arc breaks off its curve and abruptly changes shape (e.g. Goes from round to flat in front).
3. Your arc passes the primary frontal apex and begins moving backwards (aka full hit zone)

As for staying online or not, i only worry about the last 6-10" of throw being correct, as that is where power and accuracy are determined. I suppose i could probably put more work on that (i tend to only analyze it when it causes the later parts to fail) but that's the next step: working with students that have broken to the last plateau and have begun fine tuning. 99% of my lesson work is targeted at hitting it harder.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby archimedesjs » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 am

My wing span is closer to 5'8" unfortunately, which means I've probably peaked out. I'm not knocking what you're teaching, just making sure that I'm not leaving something on the table. It was the incomplete secret technique, coupled with several phone calls to you, and eventually the flip-back drill that got me to be able to feel, and manipulate the pivot. Aiming has actually become a burden for me though. Unless I'm throwing at 80%-100% on my throw, I tend to early release it. I've been forced to stand, and deliver on any holes under 350' that require me to hit a gap, and throw at 80-100% with a stable putter, or middie. I've actually exclusively throw putter flicks for upshots now because of the inconsistency with backhand touch shots. Are there any solutions for still getting a full-hit, but not throwing with as much power besides standing still while maintaining accuracy?
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Indy's broken whip » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:01 am

I'm having a hard time of understanding the bottle drill due to the language barrier or general ignorance. Should I hold the bottle from the neck and tilt it so that the water is at the bottom, or from the the bottom, neck upwards? Then I keep the bottle in the same position through the pull, and try to figure out how to turn my forearm at the end so the water shifts to the top of the bottle?
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Steady 26542 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:14 pm

Indy's broken whip wrote:I'm having a hard time of understanding the bottle drill due to the language barrier or general ignorance. Should I hold the bottle from the neck and tilt it so that the water is at the bottom, or from the the bottom, neck upwards? Then I keep the bottle in the same position through the pull, and try to figure out how to turn my forearm at the end so the water shifts to the top of the bottle?

Im glad you posted this. I thought I was the only one that didn't understand it. I sure would love to see a video of someone doing this drill. (hint, hint) :mrgreen:
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Blake_T » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:08 am

archimedesjs wrote:My wing span is closer to 5'8" unfortunately, which means I've probably peaked out. I'm not knocking what you're teaching, just making sure that I'm not leaving something on the table. It was the incomplete secret technique, coupled with several phone calls to you, and eventually the flip-back drill that got me to be able to feel, and manipulate the pivot. Aiming has actually become a burden for me though. Unless I'm throwing at 80%-100% on my throw, I tend to early release it. I've been forced to stand, and deliver on any holes under 350' that require me to hit a gap, and throw at 80-100% with a stable putter, or middie. I've actually exclusively throw putter flicks for upshots now because of the inconsistency with backhand touch shots. Are there any solutions for still getting a full-hit, but not throwing with as much power besides standing still while maintaining accuracy?


manipulate your reach back length and grip pressure.

you want to snap it, but not as hard. less reach and/or less "oomph" on the grip = solution. you don't want it to slip, you just want less on it.

I'm having a hard time of understanding the bottle drill due to the language barrier or general ignorance. Should I hold the bottle from the neck and tilt it so that the water is at the bottom, or from the the bottom, neck upwards? Then I keep the bottle in the same position through the pull, and try to figure out how to turn my forearm at the end so the water shifts to the top of the bottle?


Hold the bottle near the middle or bottom with the neck angled upwards (~45 degrees). pull the bottle's along the rail with the bottom of the bottle being the front as it moves along the rail. as it passes the critical point, rotate your forearm and flatten the bottle out slightly so that the water abruptly shifts to the front.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:27 am

I did the bottle test the way i understood it from the latest way clearer description. With my left arm because my right arm has tendonitis that's going away finally. I checked the results at low power with the right arm. Indoors stand stills needed elbow well forward and a fairly quick snap and most importantly a good pushing down of the wrist dropping the bottle to horizontal with a good follow through. No follow through no moving of the water to the neck of the bottle.

I was holding the bottle at 15% of the height from the bottom of the bottle toward the top. I think it is easier with a bottom grip of the bottle. A thin and tall bottle might be even easier if you don't get this working right away. Getting the water to shift to the front entirely and staying there permanently needed tilting down of the top of the bottle to below horizon. It might have been the intention of this drill IDK. In order to get that much nose down albeit at low power the 45 degree upward angle smashed down late in the throw created impressive nose down angles that i've only seen from a Bonopane grip in my throwing. The added momentum of the wrist pushing the hand and the disc down from the rail movement 45 degree upward tilt really added to the ability of the forearm muscles in keeping the wrist really far down.

I did the key turn of the forearm twisting from the elbow too and together with the up to down wrist motion the snap wasn't too far off of the feeling of a karate punch that starts with the palm up snapping it down late in the punch just before the contact. With similar timing to DG late acceleration. It makes sense because both movements are punches late in the motion. The forearm key twist is something i've never done because i thought the steering wheel drill from the incomplete secret technique thread was a little different. The key twist did not feel like it would add more power to a mock throw with a disc in the hand not ripping out as much as the karate punch does. That may be due to the mass of the disc and clenching it vs a fist without extra weight and tension from the grip. I need to throw properly to see what it does. Theoretically the motion channeled to move the disc forward and rotationally should add power. At this point it only seemed to mess up my hyzer angle making every throw an anny. Maybe i was starting early and/or overdoing the rotation in degrees.

Are you supposed to hard stop the key turn forearm motion like you would in one snapping form that stops the left to right movement of the wrist to launch the disc pivot between the thumb and the index finger?

Overall the bottle/disc 45 degrees up to way down and forearm rotation created a more powerful feeling of snap than ever at that power. But i have worked out after the last time i did stand stills so some of the difference might come from me. I was thinking that with the initial difficulty of getting the key turn/hyzer angle right one might as well go the full distance and pull the disc close to the body like Dave Greenwell except on the rail. That is to say farther forward to the power pocket than Dave often does. And Dave doesn't pull that close to the chest. Disc vertically or close to it on the rail to the power pocket and a proper key turn and hefty wrist down angle=profit?

Blake i have tried shoulder key turn and that stiffened up my arm and i couldn't find a way to get loose enough to not lose a lot of arm power. I might have key turned the shoulder too early. Any ideas or should we just limit ourselves to key turning with the elbow only? That's what i tried today. Would late enough shoulder plus elbow key twist create even more power avoiding stiffening the arm muscles when it counts? I think i need to try that out too when i can. Now my arm ain't in any condition to shake the tendons so hard.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Blake_T » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:33 pm

JR: the bottle drill is meant to be performed at very low speeds. you only move as quickly as you can control the position of the water. when you find that speed, it gives a realistic speed that the disc should enter the power pocket with... in most cases this is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY slower than most people had thought.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:51 pm

I followed the rail to the right pec position at ridiculously slow speeds. Then i chopped but not at full power maybe 80 % power was the one that gave me a good permanent shift of the water. Even with a horizontal bottle in the follow through up to the point where the follow through stopped.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Blake_T » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:30 am

by aggressively chopping too much without grip strength on the disc, you will fail to hang on beyond the critical point in the arc. the shift in the water should happen after the critical point. you can make it happen even at very low speeds.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:43 am

I retried with the left arm with half of right pec drill movement and speed of the chop didn't help much. Slowing down the chop even with such a short movement of the arm and snapping the wrist in a hyper spin to 20 degrees beyond neutral with the hand shifted the water once the wrist movement was quick. Then i didn't need to follow through and push down the neck of the bottle below horizon. That is a good yardstick and this gives way better feeling and feedback than the towel drill so i recommend this over every other exercise except that it is on par with chasing flies with a rolled up newspaper. I have had the timing right on good days so this served as a confirmation. And i'm sure that the nose down will be better with the added momentum of pushing the wrist down.

I've had at least partial success without using each finger fully with mids so it'll be interesting to see how adding pinky to middle finger pressure and this drill influence the throws. I'm tempted to throw with the left arm but am afraid because it is overworked already and i lack a functioning back up arm. Antsy... :lol:
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Beetard » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:16 pm

I'm not trying to be a dick JR, but it really looks like you're missing the point of what Blake is saying.

Just move the bottle real slow and try to control the water.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:17 am

That's exactly what i did in the retry i described in my previous post.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby seehad » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:03 am

Blake_T wrote:Jr: try making the radius of your arc smaller. Aka dont let your elbow straighten all the way before changing directions. That should reduce the inertia pull / g force the disc exerts on your grip.

I can be a bit dense when it comes to understanding simple key points. Up until reading this line, I was under the impression that the hips (which drive the shoulders) start moving to open once you get your elbow up. If I understand this correctly, it should be the other way around.. So I get the elbow out, start the chop, then engage the hips to get that late acceleration? It makes sense now; if I start my rotating the hips before the arm extends I'm at the end of the power generated from the hips and actually slowing down so it's all arm at that point. It somewhat reminds me of engaging on a push putt. When I'm on and feeling it, there is a distinct feeling where I am almost passive until the disc starts to move on it's own at which time I actively spit it out of my hand onto a conveyor belt straight to the basket. If my timing is off and I try to engage the disc prior to it's own weight shift it comes up short or I arm it and it goes right.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Stringbean » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:27 pm

Yeah, you rotate your hips a total of 180 degrees from reachback to hit. The first 90 degrees happens when you transfer your weight forward... As you reach back, you will be up on the toes of your right foot. You then transfer your weight forward by rotating your left foot and at the same time, drop the heel of your right foot hard into the ground. Your left leg should then be bent with the toe of your left foot on the ground/heel up. This motion will cause the weight transfer and your hips should naturally move out front along with your elbow. To add to the elbow chop, push your left arm straight down in front of your left leg in a quick motion. The elbow chop should not be powered at all by your right shoulder, it is powered only by the motions described above. It should be a smooth, fluant motion.

You should now be perpendicular to the target with your right elbow out in front, your head and hips in line with your right knee, and your left arm straight down in front of you. The final 90 degrees starts by straightening your left leg explosively and at the same time pivoting on your right foot. Your legs will power your hips/core, core powers your shoulders, shoulder turns your upper arm, upper arm stops abruptly, forearm flings around. At this point, squeeze the hell out of the disc, the disc should rip from your fingers and rotate around the pivot point, then bounce off your palm. All you should hear is the whirr of the disc. I try to keep my left toe on the ground through the hit to maintain balance.

It helps to practice the entire motion in front of a mirror without a disc, trying to get your wrist to snap open as hard as possible and maintaining a smooth, fluid motion.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby seehad » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:01 pm

Stringbean wrote:You should now be perpendicular to the target with your right elbow out in front, your head and hips in line with your right knee, and your left arm straight down in front of you. The final 90 degrees starts by straightening your left leg explosively and at the same time pivoting on your right foot. Your legs will power your hips/core, core powers your shoulders, shoulder turns your upper arm, upper arm stops abruptly, forearm flings around. At this point, squeeze the hell out of the disc, the disc should rip from your fingers and rotate around the pivot point, then bounce off your palm. All you should hear is the whirr of the disc. I try to keep my left toe on the ground through the hit to maintain balance.


This is essentially the impression I had of this portion of the throw but after reading this thread, it almost seems like a shoulder spinner.
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