Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

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Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:31 pm

I was out practicing driving today and I have a question on how a disc should move...

In theory my destroyer is a 12, 5, -1, 3... My question is the faster I throw it and the more snap I put on it should the disc anhyzer more the harder I throw it or should it stay true to the -1 hss that the disc says? Just wondering...

Also if I hyzer flip it... Will that change the flight characteristics off from the numbers stated on the disc. So in this case the -1, 3
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JR » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:26 pm

Because generally people can't add spin as much as speed throwing faster will make the disc turn anhyzer with a steeper angle. The flight numbers aren't feet of movement in any direction. The initial angle of release does not change the natural flight characteristics of the disc so the numbers stay the same. However; the flight path does change and speed/spin/nose angle/hyzer angles combo with a hyzer flipped Destro would imitate a different more overstable disc released flat.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby garublador » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:17 am

The turn and fade ratings are generally relative to other discs of the same speed, they don't represent a specific flight. So a -1 on the turn means that it's easier to turn than a 0 turn disc of the same speed and harder to turn than a -2 turn disc of the same speed.

There are exceptions, though. Some discs with a zero turn will be straight flyers over a large range of speeds (e.g. Teebird, Roc, BB Aviar, Wizard, ect.). Many very overstable discs will act very overstable over a large range of speeds, too.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:19 am

I guess here's my question so with a 12 speed disk if I throw it as a speed 13 will it fade to the right more than a -1 when released flat?
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Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby Fightingthetide » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:31 am

That's not the question you need to be asking. Like they said, the flight numbers are relative. You can't throw a speed 12 disc "speed 13". That number is the relative speed of the disc. While it does correspond to the amount of speed needed to make it fly properly, you don't quantify speed in those terms.

What you should ask is "If I throw my Destroyer faster than the speed needed to make it fly properly, will it become less stable?" The answer is yes, but not a lot, unless the disc is beat and/or you have OAT issues.

Oh, and the 3rd number is turn, not fade: Speed - glide - turn - fade

BUT, that is a great question to ask in general. Keep learning! Disc golf has a lot of really fun physics involved.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:38 pm

Fightingthetide wrote:That's not the question you need to be asking. Like they said, the flight numbers are relative. You can't throw a speed 12 disc "speed 13". That number is the relative speed of the disc. While it does correspond to the amount of speed needed to make it fly properly, you don't quantify speed in those terms.

What you should ask is "If I throw my Destroyer faster than the speed needed to make it fly properly, will it become less stable?" The answer is yes, but not a lot, unless the disc is beat and/or you have OAT issues.

Oh, and the 3rd number is turn, not fade: Speed - glide - turn - fade

BUT, that is a great question to ask in general. Keep learning! Disc golf has a lot of really fun physics involved.

Yes! This was exactly what I was wondering... My next question is to get the discs to work the way they are rated to work so with the turn and fade correctly... Yes you need to throw them fast enough but if you do that and hyzer flip them I noticed they pop flat...

So is it better to hyzer flip a disc or release them flat? And do discs hold similar flight patterns when released at the same speed but one is hyzer flipped and the other is flat....

Obviously I have been out testing this but I am just wondering the theory of it
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Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby Fightingthetide » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:48 pm

pask2155 wrote:And do discs hold similar flight patterns when released at the same speed but one is hyzer flipped and the other is flat


If a disc has a rating -2 for turn and 1 for fade, it will turn that relative amount of -2 whether thrown flat, hyzer, or anhyzer. Other forces might hinder or help that rotation. Same goes for the fade. Thrown hyzer, the fade will seem more pronounced, because it's initial angle once the fade kicks in is steep. When thrown anhyzer, the fade might not even be evident, but it is still there...just not enough to make the disc stop turning right before landing. Does that make sense?

For instance, it's possible that a disc with a -2,1 turn/fade rating thrown on a hyzerflip could fly like a 0,2 rated disc thrown flat...all other things being the same.

Anyone who knows physics better than me...feel free to chime in and correct that if I'm off.

And whether it's better to throw hyzer is up to you and up to the shot you need to take. If its a tunnel with no room for movement, its good to throw a hyzerflip. And most people can throw further on a hyzerflip with an understable disc.
Last edited by Fightingthetide on Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:09 pm

Yeah this answers a whole lot of my questions... I have noticed when I hammer my destroyer I can release it flat and it will turn on a tiny s curve. But my Orc if released flat has a wider s curve so to keep it smaller I have been hyzer flipping it and it makes a tighter s curve....

So all this makes great sense to me! Thanks!
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby garublador » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:05 am

It's worth noting that there are many aspects of any given disc's flight that won't show up on any flight chart. They would have to be way too complicated to accurately portray every aspect of every disc. Two discs with a -1 flight rating might take the same amount of power to flip up from the same hyzer angle but perform differently from there. They can also act differently when they're beat or handle more or less speed differently. The flight charts are just there to get you into the ball park. After that you'll need to either ask people you trust about how the discs fly or throw them yourself.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:49 am

when you hyzer flip a disc, does it take some of the turn out of he disc?

Because what i am noticing is I can hyzer flip almost any disc i throw... but when I do this, does it make the disc have less turn then if released flat?
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby keltik » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:58 am

depends on the disc. if you have a really beat up disc or a disc that has a lot of turn when flat you could still get it to turn over from hyzer. Some discs actually behave better in this condition/flight. I had an EP XL once that could roll from steep hyzer. or was it a TP Cyclone. anyway it does depend on the disc. and like FTT said a few posts up you can make a leopard fly like a teebird if you hyzer flip it right.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:44 pm

So in general the answer is yes??? A disc turns less when hyzer flipped rather than released straight?

And does this add or subtract from the distance of the shot?
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby kern9787 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:35 pm

pask2155 wrote:So in general the answer is yes??? A disc turns less when hyzer flipped rather than released straight?

And does this add or subtract from the distance of the shot?


It depends on how you are defining "turn."

All else equal, a disc thrown with hyzer will turn the exact same amount. By this, I mean the amount the disc actually rotates if you were looking at the profile of the disc from the rear during the flight. If you throw a disc flat, and it rotates 15 degrees during its high speed flight (which will cause it to track to the right, if thrown RHBH), you would expect the same throw, if thrown with 15 degrees of hyzer, to stand up to flat.

As far as distance goes, hyzer flipping allows for more potential.

I'm assuming that you are already familiar with the three "stages" of disc flight. Above cruising speed (or high speed turn), at cruising speed (no turn or fade), and below cruising speed (low speed fade)

Imagine you want to throw a straight shot for as much distance as you can accurate get using a somewhat understable disc. The point of using a somewhat understable disc is to try to minimize fade. Of course the trade off is that the disc will have a significant amount of high speed turn. So in order to throw the disc flat and be able to get a straight shot, you'll have to power down some in order to avoid the stage of flight in which you are above the disc's cruising speed.

Now if we throw that same disc using a hyzer flip, we can essentially harness the high speed turn into another straight portion of the flight, allowing us to put more power behind a shot, yet keep it relatively straight still. The hyzer flip will be longer by however much distance is covered during the high speed portion of the flight. This is typically a significant distance.

As far as using a hyzer flip for max D, the concepts are the same as throwing pure anhyzer. The difference is where the apex in flight is. Comparatively, a hyzer flip's apex will be lower and further down range. This makes it much more fairway friendly for max golf D, as you typically have less lateral movement than throwing a pure anhyzer. Of course, both have smaller margins of error when compared to other golf shots.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JHern » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:02 am

pask2155 wrote:when you hyzer flip a disc, does it take some of the turn out of he disc?

Because what i am noticing is I can hyzer flip almost any disc i throw... but when I do this, does it make the disc have less turn then if released flat?


No, in fact, the disc should turn a tad more from hyzer than it does from flat. The thing that turns the disc over is most often considered to be the angle of attack: the nose angle of the disc relative to the air it is moving through. Higher angle of attack (nose up) causes the disc to turn toward hyzer, smaller angle of attack causes it to turn toward anhyzer. At high speeds, the lift force moves the disc in the direction of the disc axis, reducing the angle of attack, and when it slows down the disc is settling down the other direction, causing the angle of attack to increase. Now, a disc thrown from hyzer will get a slightly higher lift rate (in the direction of the axis of the disc) because it isn't working directly against gravity (since it is tilted), while a flat throw disc has to work directly against gravity, which lowers the angle of attack slightly.

Thus a disc flying at hyzer will exhibit slightly more turn than a disc flying flat, which is essentially why "flip flat flies straight."
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JR » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:24 am

Then there is the nasty thing where the center of lift moves on the disc during the flight. With speed and hyzer angle changes. AKA the nose of the disc varies in position during the flight. It may be a property of the discs i use and my speed and spin rate being well adjusted to those but i've not noticed any difference to the amount of flipping i get hyzer flipped or released flat as long as the disc doesn't flip so much that it drops so fast that the gravity helps enough in keeping the speed up until the disc hits the ground early. Very early.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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