Taco Ace?

Rules Discussion and General PDGA discussion.

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Taco Ace?

Postby SonicDG » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:54 pm

I was playing a quick round today by myself and taco aced a hole. If I'm just playing a round for fun, do you count it as an ace?

Image
SonicDG
Noob
User avatar
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Jewdy » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:49 pm

No.
Crank-Destroyers-Patriot-Rival-Firebird-Comets-Fugitive-Zone-Wizards
Jewdy
Noob
User avatar
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:45 pm
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Favorite Disc: Wizard

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Itchy » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:51 pm

Did you see it wedgie in from the outside? If you did, then no. Anything else and the rules say yes (I think). Go read the "Ace or no?" topic... folks seem pretty all over about this one and like adding their own common sense to the rule. If you didn't see it happen I think your supposed to give the player the benefit of the doubt, so my vote goes towards it counts.

Here's the rulebook:
http://www.pdga.com/rules

And here's holing out 803.13(3)B
http://www.pdga.com/rules/80313-holing-out
Gorilla Boy Spider Monkey
TL - FL - Valkyrie - PD - Cyclone - Element - Meteor - Roc Plus - Gremlin - Summit - Wizard
SLO Throwers mini
Itchy
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: San Luis Obispo/Lompoc, California
Favorite Disc: S Gremlin

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby keltik » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:56 pm

I think the rules were put into place to eliminate the "benefit of the doubt". The rules clearly say no so no. without rules we're just a bunch of hippies throwing frisbees at f'd up looking park grills.

Image

EDIT: my post linking skills are lacking. it's a Sobchak...
keltik
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:12 pm
Location: High Point NC
Favorite Disc: Polecat!! Ò.ó

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Steady 26542 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:34 pm

Which direction did the disc come from? Did it skip into the basket from the right or fly through the basket from the left?
Image
Team MILLENNIUM
Team Gorilla Boy
Team Iron Lion
Steady 26542
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Quad Cities
Favorite Disc: Omega SS

Taco Ace?

Postby SonicDG » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:17 am

Steady 26542 wrote:Which direction did the disc come from? Did it skip into the basket from the right or fly through the basket from the left?

Image

The tee-pad is straight between those two trees to the left of the blue barrel
SonicDG
Noob
User avatar
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Itchy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:51 am

keltik wrote:I think the rules were put into place to eliminate the "benefit of the doubt". The rules clearly say no so no.


Real talk for a minute... I completely read the rule the other way around.

"Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc
and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and
inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two
or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the
tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out."

The disc is resting supported by the tray. Way I read that is unless you saw it wedgie from the outside (entered the target below the top of the tray) it's holed out.

That said, I'm open to hear other points of view/how you read it. I'm definitely no rules pro. Which rule clearly says all tacos don't count?
Gorilla Boy Spider Monkey
TL - FL - Valkyrie - PD - Cyclone - Element - Meteor - Roc Plus - Gremlin - Summit - Wizard
SLO Throwers mini
Itchy
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: San Luis Obispo/Lompoc, California
Favorite Disc: S Gremlin

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Redisculous » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:45 pm

If you want to get really technical, OP said he was playing by himself and the rule says 2 witnesses so it counts :D

In a tourney, a wedge in does not count if it was witnessed to be so. My thought on this rule is that on a blind hole, there's just no way to know if it was a wedge OUT - having entered the basket as defined in the rules, hard enough to end up looking like a wedge in - which is why they added the whole witness thing.

Personally, I don't count these in casual rounds either but that really comes down to personal preference.
Anode | Comet | Axis |Vector | PPD | SPD | CPD
Redisculous
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:17 am
Location: Southern Wisconsin, where the best courses are in Illinois!
Favorite Disc: Axis

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:59 pm

Under current Rules Committee interpretation, it's an ace if you didn't see it wedge or if you saw it wedge on its way out of the basket. However, the way the holing out rule reads, the disc must be supported by the inside or bottom wall of the basket. Wedgies are mostly supported by the sides of the basket wires not what we would call the inner contact points of the wires that face the pipe. So technically, the current wording would make most and maybe all wedgies no good. The RC is considering how they want this to go for the upcoming rules update effective 2013.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby NoLifeLeft » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:55 pm

NoLifeLeft
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1655
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:13 pm
Location: Winchester, VA
Favorite Disc: a whole bag of 'em

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Itchy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:32 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:...Wedgies are mostly supported by the sides of the basket wires not what we would call the inner contact points of the wires that face the pipe. So technically, the current wording would make most and maybe all wedgies no good. ...


Well, I guess the question now is, and I hope this doesn't sounds snotty but, which one is it? Are all wedgies no go, or just some of them? If this wedgie is no good because over half of it is outside the cage, does a wedgie need to to be over half way inside the cage, at rest and either not witnessed going into/out of the cage or seen to wedgie in from the inside to count? Also, how come the RC and the rule book say two different things about the same situation? Which one do you play with?
Gorilla Boy Spider Monkey
TL - FL - Valkyrie - PD - Cyclone - Element - Meteor - Roc Plus - Gremlin - Summit - Wizard
SLO Throwers mini
Itchy
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: San Luis Obispo/Lompoc, California
Favorite Disc: S Gremlin

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:12 pm

I thought it was pretty clear - if the wedgie was not observed or was seen to be on the way out then Ace, at least for this year. However, the RC agrees that the wording might lead some to believe no wedgies are good. Stay tuned to see how they clarify it for the start of 2013.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby Itchy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:08 pm

Oh, I guess I didn't realize that the RC stuff was future changes, not how it's interpreted now.
Gorilla Boy Spider Monkey
TL - FL - Valkyrie - PD - Cyclone - Element - Meteor - Roc Plus - Gremlin - Summit - Wizard
SLO Throwers mini
Itchy
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: San Luis Obispo/Lompoc, California
Favorite Disc: S Gremlin

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby JHern » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:13 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Under current Rules Committee interpretation, it's an ace if you didn't see it wedge or if you saw it wedge on its way out of the basket. However, the way the holing out rule reads, the disc must be supported by the inside or bottom wall of the basket. Wedgies are mostly supported by the sides of the basket wires not what we would call the inner contact points of the wires that face the pipe. So technically, the current wording would make most and maybe all wedgies no good. The RC is considering how they want this to go for the upcoming rules update effective 2013.


Indeed, the rule says supported by...inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. This particular disc is not resting on the bottom or inside wall, but rather is supported by being wedged inside the wall itself. Therefore, it is not holed out. If this was not the intended meaning of the RC, then the wording must be revised. Either way, it should be better clarified, although the necessary changes will not be without controversy.

Perhaps the simplest thing is to be more explicit, for example:

In order to be holed-out, the disc:
1) must not enter through the bottom or side of the tray,
2) must come to rest with the geometrical center of the disc flight plate inside the inner cylinder,
3) must come to rest with some part of the disc touching any wire that constitutes any portion of the bottom of the tray, or
4) comes to rest supported by the chains.

So a disc could not be holed-out if it is supported only by the outer wall (including rim) of the tray or only by the center post. Discs that are wedged into the bottom (or bottom corner) of the tray would be OK if it is touching a support wire on the bottom of the tray (unless somebody saw it go in through the tray itself, instead of entering from over the rim). This would eliminate all wedgies that aren't touching any wire on the bottom of the tray, and it would also eliminate all that are balancing or hanging only supported by the rim itself, or hanging from other junk on the top of the basket.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2620
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Taco Ace?

Postby jleasure » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:46 am

JHern wrote:In order to be holed-out, the disc:
1) must not enter through the bottom or side of the tray,
2) must come to rest with the geometrical center of the disc flight plate inside the inner cylinder,
3) must come to rest with some part of the disc touching any wire that constitutes any portion of the bottom of the tray, or
4) comes to rest supported by the chains.

So a disc could not be holed-out if it is supported only by the outer wall (including rim) of the tray or only by the center post. Discs that are wedged into the bottom (or bottom corner) of the tray would be OK if it is touching a support wire on the bottom of the tray (unless somebody saw it go in through the tray itself, instead of entering from over the rim). This would eliminate all wedgies that aren't touching any wire on the bottom of the tray, and it would also eliminate all that are balancing or hanging only supported by the rim itself, or hanging from other junk on the top of the basket.



I did one of these wedgies yesterday. Based on what JHern said in number 2) above, since the center of my disc is inside the cylinder of the basket, it would count. This was a blind hole so no one saw the disc wedge. Based on the rules that I have read, it counts. The only way that this would not have counted is if 2 or more witnesses saw it come in from the side of the basket.
jleasure
Noob
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:29 am
Favorite Disc: champion spider

Next

Return to Rules Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest