Is this "The Hit"?

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Is this "The Hit"?

Postby iacas » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:28 pm

Image

Is that it?

The video just skips the frame(s) in between where we'd see the disc rotating around the thumb/index finger and ripping from her hand?

I think I'm right on this, but if I'm not, happy to learn and hear why.
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby seabas22 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:42 pm

Pretty much.
seabas22
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:52 pm
Favorite Disc: thunderbird

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby JR » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:09 pm

In the earlier picture she loses out much of the hit because her left leg is off of the ground. That reduces the speed at which her body turns to the right. Like standing on one leg and pushing a wall with a fist like punching pushes you from upright to back. Newton said that for every movement there is an equal and opposite movement he just used the word force and i translated into DG. If both legs were on the ground the arm would push the wall and the tense leg and torso muscles would stop you from leaning back. In a DG throw that translates to a quicker leg push, hip twist, shoulder turn, elbow chop from plyometric unloading of more force having loaded the forearm tendons from those previous movements and the same for the wrist. When there is more speed in the hand there exists the possibility of holding on to the disc long enough for a full pivot at a greater speed. A full hit.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11425
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby iacas » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:18 pm

Sorry, I meant to post the video too:



It's just funny how the video skips the frames. The disc appears to shoot off way to the left, then in one frame turn a corner and shoot right. I put green dots on the center of the disc on each frame and so the frames with "the hit" in it are missing, producing that weird look to the video.

Thanks JR for your thoughts on the footwork.

I'm still debating internally how much push you can actually get with the rear foot. In the golf swing your rear foot can slip backwards (it happens sometimes) and good golfers, myself included, still often make good contact and hit the ball just as far. It's not something you'd want to force on purpose but there's very very little pressure on the trail foot (85% minimum forward at impact) so I'm not entirely sold on how much it's truly contributing. The video of Avery has him with virtually no pressure there at impact, and Feldberg lifts it off the ground well before that.

But like I said, still mulling that piece over in my mind, and some experimentation later on down the line will be in order. :)
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby JR » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:31 pm

Feldy uses the forward and right movement of the left leg to counter the arm chop in order to even out things. Golfers slipping back still have ground contact even though it ain't optimal. If they don't lean back with the body while slipping the loss may not be great at all. Power generation wise but of course it changes where you hit the ball and the upward trajectory of the ball.

Casio cameras are too slow at times to store each image and there are skips. I don't think that is the problem here she just throws so fast that the time between the pictures allows her to move that fast. DG is fastfastfast.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11425
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby iacas » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:15 pm

JR wrote:Feldy uses the forward and right movement of the left leg to counter the arm chop in order to even out things.

Okay. Thanks. That makes sense.

JR wrote:Golfers slipping back still have ground contact even though it ain't optimal.

Contact yes (though not always - you can stork it and still be fine) but clearly they're not applying legitimate amounts (i.e. almost none) pressure through that back leg.

But as we'd both agree it's not optimal at all and trying to do this would be silly. At impact in the golf swing the legs are just about done pushing the hips forward at all and are more about extending, a catapult effect to add a little kick to the clubhead. But even still most of that is with the left leg from shaft horizontal to impact.

JR wrote:If they don't lean back with the body while slipping the loss may not be great at all. Power generation wise but of course it changes where you hit the ball and the upward trajectory of the ball.

It can, but in most cases it does not, because again the vast majority of the pressure is into the front foot at impact. In good players, mind you. In poor players slipping is disastrous as they're usually well back at impact. :(

JR wrote:Casio cameras are too slow at times to store each image and there are skips. I don't think that is the problem here she just throws so fast that the time between the pictures allows her to move that fast. DG is fastfastfast.

I don't think it's a high-speed video camera. The fact that it's 720p on YouTube speaks to that. Obviously a golf swing is faster than throwing a disc by quite a bit, and we don't skip frames like this. It's just a 30 FPS video clip, so we "miss" the hit - it falls between the frames.

Again, thank you. I promise to try not to post too many stupid questions. :D
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby Blake_T » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:38 pm

You have diagrammed the power zone.

The hit is the final few inches of motion. E.g. The last arrow.
Blake_T
Super Sekret Technique Jedi
 
Posts: 5824
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby cubeofsoup » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:34 am

The hit would be frame 3 of this, correct Blake?

Image
cubeofsoup
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 8:48 am
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby JR » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:48 am

Lacas there are few stupid questions if any if they allow wisdom to be learned. The video obviously is a higher resolution lower frame rate one. Cubeofsoup i wouldn't want to get into semantics because i've not coined the term hit. Notice how the disc has already started to move away from the hand in the third picture because Avery's thumb is closer to the outside edge of the disc than in the first and the second picture. The Youtube video was edited by mafa to be played back at 30 frames per second and the video these pictures are from was edited from 300 FPS to 250 FPS IIIRC, could have been 240 FPS, so that the second angle cam speed was used for both cameras so that the disc left the hand simultaneously. You can easily see that the disc spins well between each picture. It would take some work to measure the rate of acceleration of spin between each picture and adding the fourth picture to that video would help in determining the rip and how large portion of the final RPM of the disc was created in each of the four pictures. I filmed this angle and mafa the other and that 175 Star Xcaliber of mine is still in use for allowing people to know how fast their disc spins at best.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11425
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby JHern » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:56 pm

JR wrote:In the earlier picture she loses out much of the hit because her left leg is off of the ground. That reduces the speed at which her body turns to the right...


Maybe, but note that her off-leg push, which occurs prior to the hit, is still utilized as its energy was transferred into torso momentum. These don't need to be simultaneous.

Paige throws farther than most guys on the course.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2619
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby JR » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:44 pm

I'm not disputing that at all i'm just saying Newton would not approve and the efficiency of this throw was compromised. I have filmed a way better form from her and i commented on the audio track to the President's Cup 2011 that to learn form you should look at that throw over and over again. Not sure if lcgm8 included it in the video though.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11425
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby iacas » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:48 am

JR wrote:I'm not disputing that at all i'm just saying Newton would not approve and the efficiency of this throw was compromised. I have filmed a way better form from her and i commented on the audio track to the President's Cup 2011 that to learn form you should look at that throw over and over again. Not sure if lcgm8 included it in the video though.


Just a question because I honestly don't know: on shots of 80+% power, what percentage of pros keep their trail foot on the ground until the release? What % are close? What % never do?

It doesn't seem to be all that common, but I'm happy to be told I'm wrong in this case. :)
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

Re: Is this "The Hit"?

Postby JR » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:21 am

I've never paid enough attention to it to be able to drop ballpark percentages. Not all keep their rear leg on the ground when the disc leaves but many notable players do.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11425
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace


Return to Technique

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests