Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

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Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby Blake_T » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:02 pm

We have finished the chart update throwing, but I haven't sent it to print yet. These are the semi-final numbers. If you have any disagreements, please feel free to share them since we have, in the past, had some odd runs of discs that weren't representative of the whole. We have 1 more chance to perform re-throws and if anything new comes out within the next 5 days or so.

RNG/HSS/LSS/PWR

Putters:
Anode 2 / -1 / +1 / 1
Clutch 2 / 0 / +1.5/ 1
Clozer 2 / 0 / +2 / 1
Mercy 2 / 0 / +2 / 1
Ruby 2 / -3 / +1 / 1

Midrange:
Ghost 3 / 0 / +3 / 2
King Cobra 3 /-1 / +2.5 / 2
Lycan 3 / -0.5 / +1.5 / 1
Super Stingray 3 / -0.5 / +2 / 2
Warship 3.5 / -1 / +1.5 / 1
Pearl 3 / -3 / +2 / 1
Obex 3 / 0 / +2.5 / 2
Mystic 3 / -1.5 / +2.5 / 2
Karma 3 / 0 / +3 / 2

Fairway Drivers:
FD: 5 / -1 / +2.5 / 4
Saint 5 / -1 / +2.5 / 4
TL+ 4.5 / -1 / +2 / 4 (no change from original)
Undertow 4 / -2.5 / +2 / 4

Distance Drivers:
Cannon 5.5 / -2 / +3 / 6
Giant 5 / +0.5 / +4 / 6
Krait 5.5 / -1 / +2.5 / 5
Mamba 5.5 / -3 / +2.5 / 4
Villain 5 / 0 / +3.5 / 6
Dominator 5.5 / -1 / +3 / 6
Samurai 5.5 / -1.5 / +3.5 / 6
Scorpius 5.5 / -0.5 / +3 / 6

Blizzard/Light:
Bliz Ape 5 / 0 / +4 / 5
Bliz Boss 5.5 / -1.5 / +3 / 5
Bliz Destroyer 5.5 / -1 / +3.5 / 5
Bliz Katana 5.5 / -2.5 / 3 / 4
Bliz Krait 5.5 / -2 / +3 / 4
Bliz Teedevil 5.5 / -2 / +3 / 5
Bliz DD2 5.5 / -2 / +3.5 / 5
ZeroG Quasar 5.5 / -2 / +3.5 / 5
ZeroG Scorpius 5.5 / -1 / +3.5 / 5
Starlite Roadrunner 5 / -2.5 / +1 / 2
Bliz Wraith 5.5 / -1.5 / +3 / 4
Bliz Dominator 5.5 / -2 / +3 / 5

the discs i would deem the "best" of this batch: saint, lycan, fd. i was impressed by the dominator. seems like it should be throwable by those in the 350-425' power range pretty well without the same touchiness of most of the high speed drivers with a negative hss.

most interesting observation of this batch: there's a lot of discs with "boatman" tendencies. That is, when they start to fade, they bank hard and land before they are able to cover a large distance. so while the steepness of the bank during fade might make it seem overstable, they are able to keep the gyroscopics from making discs cover too much fade distance if the disc isn't significantly turned over.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby archimedesjs » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:00 pm

Awesome, great work, and thanks for all the time & effort. Any idea when these will be incorporated into the android app "Joe's Universal Flight Chart"?
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby Blake_T » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:48 am

thanks. we get paid for doing it, so it's not completely altruistic.

no clue on the android app as I don't even know who does that.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby JR » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:21 am

My Obex is LSS 3 based on the King Cobra being straighter at the power range of the KC or actually even at 300'. My KC fades like the overstable Glo Z Buzzes that are more LSS than good Z Buzzes.´I'd rate the KC HSS as -0.5 to 0 at a little over 300' line drive. Meaning most times it won't flip in calm conditions but it will even in mild winds so i think a hair more than 300' is the distance where the HSS moves from 0 to negative numbers.

The initial reports people made about Bliz Apes were that they were flippy. I haven't thrown them because of that report and my 134 super beefy Destro could do the same role and i use neither.

Bliz Teedevil at 400' is more LSS than 3 i'd add a half tick because once it starts to fade albeit late it tilts hard and dumps soon.

Just as a data point my Starlite 145 Roady is lower PLH bubble topped a bit vs regular Champs Roadys. Boy that is flippy like -4 HSS. I can live with a -5 too because even FLX ASS ain't flippier they are on par. I have no idea about other Roadys in StarLite.

Blizzards vary hugely between weights because the weight range is large and on the low side so maybe some sort of note should be printed about it that the lightest ones are less HSS and possible a hair less LSS than the heaviest ones.

I have a 138, 150 and 157 Quasar in Zero G and none of them fade anywhere close to 3.5. The flight angles change slowly like old school discs like Rocs and QOLSs so i think a half tick more than a Beast would suffice and if that brings the light Quasars LSS to above 2.5 the Beast should be reduced in LSS.

I agree about the Dominator being good in the sense that it ain't too power hungry and has a little flip while not being the rudest dump fader. So it is cleaning up some of the mess of OATy thrower and has a measure of user error protection. It just ain't the longest or the straightest fast long driver out there. More like the Jack of all trades and the master of none.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby Blake_T » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:00 am

Thanks, jr.

Both obex we had were definitely not an lss 3 both in their fade propensity and fade strength and i pulled 2 diff shapes and weights. The wasp is sort of the becnh mark for lss 3 mids. The king cobra was tough. One of them (171g) was -0.5 hss on all throws 275-425'. The other (180g) was -2 on all throws over 300'. After 30-40 throws i just gave up on it and averaged them to estimate what they were "supposed to be". Reminded me a lot of the groove when we rated it.

I really hesitated to rerate the blizzard stuff... They are just all over the place shapewise (we had 3 completely diff shaped kraits). The other problem we had is that if dan snapped them at all they were turning over due to speed on oat-less throws. I have several pwr tests to determine what a disc should be rated. My solution was to do the pwr tests first and then have dan do the throws at the pwr level we got. E.g. If it got a pwr 5 rating we tested them in the 325-350' range. If it got a 4 pwr we rated them for 275-300' throws, etc. in the absence of oat and wind the ape was hss 0 but i can understand people cranking on it and way overturning it expecting it to fly like a heavier ape.

As for the quasar, remember our lss rating is determined in the absence of turn. Our zg quasars banked haaaaaaard when they weren't thrown hard enough to turn over.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby CatPredator » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:38 am

Blake_T wrote:I really hesitated to rerate the blizzard stuff


It seems like it would be better to just leave them off the chart, but perhaps their popularity calls for their inclusion.

It's funny that the Blizzard Kraits got rated with less HSS and more LSS than the standard Champion Krait. I'd guess that's a product of averaging the 3 different shapes, but do you end up with a rating that doesn't actually represent any of those variants? Is it better to include them so that people can quickly reference the chart to get an idea of what they're "supposed" to do, or is it better to leave them off and just let people form their own assumptions? Everyone's mileage varies sooooo much with these things [Blizzards in general] it's impossible to rate them.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby JR » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:52 am

I understand about the no turn Quasar shot but then i have a differing opinion about the testing methodology. And i'm not sure if you treat all the discs the same based on what you wrote of the mids. The differing opinion i have about throwing a light Quasar at the power it doesn't flip at inflates the LSS number and the disc ain't designed for such a slow speed and the HSS is still determined by making it turn. Contradictory. For a real world drive that is powered enough to make the light Quasars to turn the fade is way less than for a no turn shot. In a different way than any speed 13+ Innova scale disc performed with a no turn test. Real drives behave a lot differently. The propensity to fade is the lowest of all warp speeders and the angle addition rate too with a very forward penetrating fade that moves less sideways than forward on low line drives. Out of warp speeders the fade is the least one of the latest hitting and definitely the slowest increasing so the LSS should reflect that.

My Z Wasps are from an era where people complained that they aren't as beefy as the good original Z Wasps. The LSS of my Obex is similar to my two Z Wasps. Meaning that with a 300'+ low (for a mid) line drive both go much of the way absolutely flat and both have a fade that kicks in hard and accelerates the rate of moving to hyzer quickly. My Obex seems like a hair slower Z Wasp in flight behavior and distance. Mine definitely is LSS 3 but i have no idea how representative it is. The other Obexes at the store looked identical in shape.

If the Blizzard Ape is gonna flip for decently powered player and be useless to a power thrower shouldn't the HSS reflect that?

I have only the one KC and based on how others describe theirs mine seems to be fairly regular one in flight. It is a pity that there are such variations because the HSS 0 to 300' or a little above KCs are really very good mids. If the majority are good 0 HSS then the numbers should do it justice so i nominate the KC for a new tryout session with different individuals. I'd also at least visually inspect more Obexes and get the most overstable ones for a retest to see if my findings make more sense then.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby Blake_T » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:35 pm

I will have a final discussion with the powers that be and i do think it would be wise to drop the blizzard rerates. They are way too all over the place.

I understand about the no turn Quasar shot but then i have a differing opinion about the testing methodology. And i'm not sure if you treat all the discs the same based on what you wrote of the mids. The differing opinion i have about throwing a light Quasar at the power it doesn't flip at inflates the LSS number and the disc ain't designed for such a slow speed and the HSS is still determined by making it turn. Contradictory. For a real world drive that is powered enough to make the light Quasars to turn the fade is way less than for a no turn shot. In a different way than any speed 13+ Innova scale disc performed with a no turn test. Real drives behave a lot differently. The propensity to fade is the lowest of all warp speeders and the angle addition rate too with a very forward penetrating fade that moves less sideways than forward on low line drives. Out of warp speeders the fade is the least one of the latest hitting and definitely the slowest increasing so the LSS should reflect that.]


The discs still fade, but the fade is not as visually apparent since a disc that reaches a significant turn will fade forwards rather than left. With the chart's arrows i have told people you can approximate the flight path by connecting the lss arrow onto the end of the hss arrow. For the sake of argument if you had a disc rated hss -3 and lss +5 it would still appear to have less fade than a disc that is hss 0 lss +3. It doesnt change how much fade there is, it only affects how much right to left movement you see on that throw when a disc turns over and completes its flight.

By giving a true "left pull" rating rather than a compensated value measuring visual right to left movement it fixes the power compensation adjustments.
E.g. Innova rates the monarch -4 +1. Their -4 roughly corresponds to joe's -3 and +1 roughly corresponds to joe's +1.5-2. Their rating is applicable to throws over ~390' or so. If a 250' throwing am buys a 175g, im pretty sure he's a) not going to be able to turn it over (or if he can it will be barely) and b) see a lot more fade than he would out of other innova models rated +1 fade.

I got the monarch fade rating on throws in the 300-325' range that we barely reached flat from a hyzer. Our pwr rating had it targeted at 325-350' throwers that will likely see a flight similar to a valkyrie of corresponding weight.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby Blake_T » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:41 pm

Something else i think i have explained before but probably not in great detail, but many of the fade ratings take certain characteristics into account. E.g. There are certain behavioral cues that set a lss +4 apart from a +3.5 and other cues that separate a +3.5 from a +3, +2.5 from a +3 etc.

This tends to negate variables like throw height, nose down variance, etc. and provide a uniform method of categorization. It's also how we separate true overstable tendencies from gyroscopics. This has been a very consistent method over the years and while people do disagree with some ratings, i rarely find people who disagree with more than 1 number in more than 5 models.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby andrew » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:27 pm

The disc golf community could never thank you enough for this effort of highly standardized objective disc flight measurement. The average joe throws a disc once and decides that's what it does and buys another disc.
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Re: Flight Chart Update Fall 2012 done

Postby bcr123psu » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:24 am

Have things thawed enough in MN to do some testing? Is a spring update to Joe's a possibility?
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