Critique greatly appreciated

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Critique greatly appreciated

Postby allsport1313 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:13 pm

Hello all! :) I'm new to the community, and to disc golf in general (3-4 months experience). I am still in the process of tweaking my form in order to throw farther and more consistently (I also have big trouble throwing straight). It seems there is an abundance of throwing advice online, and to be honest, its kind of overwhelming. I've probably read now in the thousands, things I'm supposed to be doing with my hips, shoulders, elbow, head, feet, wrist, etc. Basically I'm just looking for some general advice, maybe a way to prioritize what I need to change in my throw. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I play everyday and have come to somewhat of a plateau, as you guys call it :)


This video is on a 244 foot par 3, a distance I feel comfortable throwing to get an essence of what my throw looks like. Discs were: blue 175g DX Wraith, orange 168g Champion Valkyrie, green 167g Champion Leopard, and a red 167g DX Leopard (totally shanked that one :))

Thanks!!
PS: Sorry for poor quality, video is captured on my iphone.
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby JR » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:38 pm

Cross post from the technique section.

Throws that are so smooth and slow are good for approaches and there are many things that you can do to increase distance. Too many to try at once because incorporating one thing changes others and the brain can't keep up with a throw that has so many changed things. Because learning good form is easiest done at slower speeds i would not add more steps or speed them up just yet.

You land the final step flat and follow through is forcibly short and your leg is twisted. That can injure you from ankle to upper back at least. It also slow you down because you need to accelerate and the only way to do that fully to the end is to step forward with the left leg pointing the left side at the target in a flat shot after the disc has ripped out. You should raise the ball of the foot high in the air and pivot on the right heel after landing on the left side of the right toe rolling from there to the heel.

You don't add speed to the throw by twisting the hips to the right of neutral and shoulders even rather to the right. You should move the right elbow forward -an inch or two short of pointing the upper arm toward the target (perfectly straight locks up the elbow and might rip the tendons and muscles injuring you severely). That will create a bend in the elbow which stretches the tendons which chop the elbow straight faster than the muscles could do on their own. In these throws none had a lot of acceleration of the arm. The command your brain should send out is to move fast. Not strong like lifting weights. Fast movements need loose muscles up to the point where the disc comes to the right pec.

These are good starters but i'd like to see flat shots at 200' straight and full power with the above changes. You will run into new things and i hope we can clear up any problems before moving to adding speed and power from the legs.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby allsport1313 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:41 pm

JR:
Well, I just got done playing my before-school round and got a chance to test out some of your advice. I concentrated on two things in particular: shortening my reachback (leaving my elbow slightly slanted as opposed to straight 180 degrees), and coming through my shot fast instead of strong. I don't know which one of these adjustments (both?) changed my shot, but I surprised myself with some of the drives I threw. Somehow my shots started peaking at 12-15' instead of 25-30', and going dead straight the first 75% of the flight (as my other thread states, I am never able to throw straight). Distance and accuracy were also up considerably as a result of a lower, faster shot.

Anyways, thanks much :O Should I wait to add other subtleties until I make this muscle memory? Oh also, a couple of times you gave me advice on what to do with my leg or foot, but since I am a noob, I am not sure which leg and foot you are referring to :)
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby JR » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:50 am

Congratulations! How far did those lower throws go? This site follows the following definition of the x step. The first step is with the right leg, the x step is with the left and the final step is also called the plant step and is done with the right leg. That plant step makes the primary foot pivot that is usually discussed here and my signature refers to this step in the placement of the step relative to the line you run on. I can't say for sure that everything is fine and dandy now so another video would help to see where you are now and what else if anything could be improved. Obviously things are better now but are they everything you are capable of? Because it works better now you should keep on doing it but without seeing it i can't tell you to lock everything down. Flight paths are a big tell about the purity of form also so i have no data yet based on which to say you should stop trying to improve. As if i'd ever tell that to anyone :-) Because things work better now why not shoot the moon and go for the gold by trying to incorporate new ways of throwing too?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby allsport1313 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:36 pm

Hey again! I'll try to get a video today when I go with my friend. On my second round yesterday, still incorporating these techniques, I managed a drive in the 350 range on flat ground, quite a ways farther than I am used to. This makes me think I am at least doing something better. I think the main difference in trying to throw fast instead of strong, is that I incidentally throw a straight line through my right pec. On the strong throws, I tend to do a scooping kind of motion, causing a nasty hyzer.
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby kevind » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:30 pm

learning to keep the nose down is one of most noticeable tweeks you can make. Id say thats what your doing now.
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby JR » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:58 pm

Trying to use the muscles as if you're lifting something strong leads to funny movements. Maybe you've associated strong with lifting weights with the biceps so a strong throw rises too? End of kitchen psych. Nose angle is king.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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update!

Postby allsport1313 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:18 pm

So it has been 10 days or so that I have been throwing in this new way and I'm pretty comfortable with it now. Had a great milestone yesterday - my first legit even par round! I've uploaded a clip of me throwing at full power to hopefully get some feedback on if I am employing these changes correctly, and any other tweak ideas.

Once again, please forgive me on these camera skills :(. I recorded throws on about 5 of my drives today, and this was the only one that wasn't facing the ground or the sky. It isn't sexy, but I hope it will suffice.

My main focuses - a shorter reach back, a faster throw, and a committed followthrough.

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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby JR » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:11 pm

It is difficult to say from that angle but maybe getting the elbow forward more could help. For more distance you need to really stomp that tee with the left leg to push fastfastfast forward. The hips need to turn to the right of neutral late in the throw right after the explosive left leg push has started. The arm is moving so slowly and smoothly that it seems good for an approach shot. Now slam on the gas and lets see what you've got :-D
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Update!

Postby allsport1313 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:40 pm

Hey guys, finally managed to get some good quality clips of my drives as of today. I've added a bit of distance since the first video, from a ~290 average to now a ~340 average. My consistency is something that has been somewhat upsetting to me lately. As you will see in the video, I have trouble doing the exact same thing on every throw... my drives are kind of all over the place. Which is why I would love any critique you guys may have for me :D

My home-made driving range is up a pretty good incline, so these shots may look a lot shorter than they are.

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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby Stringbean » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:36 pm

You need to turn your hips 180 degrees from your target during the reach back. It looked like you were closer to 90 degrees.

After your weight shifts forward onto your plant foot, you should be at 90 degrees with the disc at or beyond your right pec. This is the point where you accelerate. The hit should happen when you are around 60 degrees from the target. It looked like you were squared up to the target or even a little past that.

When you plant, your foot should be pointing 90 degrees from the target, it looked like your foot was pointing straight at the target from the start. The hill doesn't help much but it looked like your body weight was between your front and back legs when it should be over or beyond your front foot.

It also looked like your run up was at an angle rather than directly at the target. I suggest slowing down or even throwing from a standstill until you can get the weight shift and foot work down / timing down.

It kind of seems like your throw is the same as it was before except you are starting 90 degrees later in attempt to improve your follow through. You should try to extend the motion of the entire throw by starting with steady pace from 180 to 90, then finishing quickly through the hit. The positive acceleration of your arm at the hit will be the motor for your follow through.
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby JR » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:24 am

That is proper anhyzer driving form no problems there. If you can perform flat shots as well you're making great progress. Do you get the same distance increases with flat shots on flat ground? The reason i ask is because you are throwing uphill as you noted and anny releases make distance lines that do automatically increase distance vs a flat line drive. It is essential to train form changes on flat ground because uphill tee changes things a little and that corrupts the data you are getting possibly skewing your deductions about what works and why. And possibly masks things you do right so there is risk about discarding findings from a perfect execution.

And what stringbean said.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby allsport1313 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:26 am

Stringbean - Thank you! I definitely see what you mean. It looks like I am kind of flinging it instead of using my body's momentum. I haven't worked on footwork really so I will have to tackle that next. My run-up looks rather futile at the moment. My footwork should also correct that hip turn I need to be doing, correct? If I plant my left 180 degrees my body seems to do the work for me. Also yes, my run-up is from right to left when I am trying to throw far, not sure why lol. Where I am throwing from is flat ground though.

JR - Hi again and thank you! Well, for the past week I had throwing at the football field but it rained all day yesterday so I had to improvise, but at the football field is where I found my avg of 340. On flat ground my trajectory tends to look like my second throw in the video. Yeah you are right it is hard to analyze disc flight in this vid, any thoughts about form though? Aside from hips and footwork? I noticed in my first video I dig my heel into the ground on the shot(I've heard you are supposed to use the heel, not the toe). It looks like when I try to throw hard I end up on my toe though.. is that a bad thing?
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby Stringbean » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:48 am

Yeah, the initial part of the throw should be all body and no arm. By turning your body so that your back is facing the target, you are forcing your body to do the work. Your arm muscles should only be used to keep the disc on an even plane up until the point where your elbow can't move forward any further. That is when you want to explode. Have you read through the maxing out at 300 feet thread? It is 30 pages long but well worth the read. I know that you are averaging 340, but that thread will teach you to throw 340 at 60% effort instead of 100%. You will have a lot more consistency and accuracy at 60%.

This is another good thread that could help you out... http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60840
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Re: Critique greatly appreciated

Postby JR » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:30 am

You are supposed to land the plant step on the side of the right toe rolling to the heel raising the ball of the foot pivoting on the heel and following through by taking a step with the left leg and moving onto the toe with the right leg so no problem there.

I'd like to see a flat release shot made on flat ground to see if there's something to improve on there because the way you threw only fits open holes not tunnels or left turning fairways.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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