Rain grip issues (solution?)

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Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:54 am

I had a light bulb moment today in 48F rain driving with my firm Obex (less grippy than my glass slick skin in that temperature likes). I toweled the rim dry then bent over the disc to shield it from the rain and wiped the flight plate dry in a slightly larger area than my grip needs. Then i toweled my hand dry wiggled it around and blew on the finger tips to warm the skin for more friction and rubbed the finger tips together to check for optimal grip. Which means the hand and fingers were dry except for the water vapor from my breath. Which adds grip vs a totally dry skin. I checked the flight plate that no drops had fallen on it before i gripped the dry part of the flight plate. I threw on an uphill straight then a 20 degree left turn after about 200' fairway hugging the left side bushes in my mind in shot planning. Reality was different.

Has anybody noticed that a not completely dried flight plate can shift a lot of water during the throw to the flight plate under the thumb? Sliiiipp! I felt me thumb aquaplane on top of the disc a long time and missed over 10 degrees left to bushes. The thumb was all wet right after throwing and i don't think there was nearly enough rain to do that just by my hand hitting enough falling rain drops during the throw.

I was so pissed off that after looking for the disc for 10 minutes or a little more i went back to the tee to try to see if i could slip the slippage issues and solve them for good. I used the Jenkins grip for the thumb but using the base of the thumb on the flight plate pushing against the pinky that was under the bottom of the disc pushing up against the base of the thumb in the original throw. The thumb was in normal summer time place so i moved the thumb almost an inch toward the center of the disc. I had pushed fairly hard down before starting the throw in the first attempt and now pressed down at 80-90 % initially tensing up the forearm muscles knowing that it would slow down my arm speed. Lowered expectations due to weather and trying to learn a better way... I did try to pinch even harder late in the throw and the disc flew on the line i pulled on but slipped starting right away when the disc started to pivot. This Obex hasn't seen citrus wash yet and the local store didn't carry medium Obexes. I know what i need to do on that front.

I have tried gloves that are designed for giving grip to other activities in the winter. While somewhat useful at times the grip pads on those gloves loose too much traction in these temperatures and so far i haven't tried them in the rain only in the snow. Discs can get wet in the snow and based on that all of the gloves i've tried are unsatisfactory even in driving. Putting is more difficult because thinness of material and non existing seams are a must for even half decent results so any way you look at it gloves are a compromise at best.

I have a question to rules experts regarding the use of gloves. nobody can tell me what to use in rec rounds but having a crutch that i can't use in competition is limiting myself or my progression at least for the competitions that are held in lousy conditions if my crutch is competition illegal. I bought anti slipping tape that is plastic based with probably pretty hefty glue that is hopefully water proof and the surface is reminiscent of low grit sand paper. I'd think that without testing the tape it is premature to slap it on gloves to try if it is competition illegal. This is possibly a new issue to disc golfers IDK so the rules might not be clear on whether you can use anti slipping tape reinforced gloves while throwing in competition.

The reason i ask about competition eligibility is that i have tried throwing with actual water sanding paper for great anti slipping results. The tapes come in many parameters and the one i have is most likely way too coarse so i think i'll ruin at least one tester disc using it if i ever go that far. The motivation to do that is insanely high 8) I might do it to practice keeping discs on the line in the 2/3 shitty weather per year that started already. Good weather see ya in 8 months :roll: The courses are more like lake/water hazard combo now. The trouble with actual sand paper is the paper base that dissolves in wet conditions in under one round. So incorporating sand paper to sports tape (too slick for me) doesn't work and even that would be at least grey area rules wise. Sure rules allow sports tape and some anti slippage compounds that at least in some cases are named specific products. To my understanding all inclusive grip enhancer allowance in the rules does not exist. So i'd like to hear from rules experts before i start to prototype.

For me reducing slipping to the left is a safety issue to players and outsiders alike. With additional grip comes the chance for added grip locks so that argument could be seen to be overruled or watered down. However; even discs are dangerous in inexperienced irresponsible hands. So what is the real danger of adding grip for normal competitors that already have skills and knowledge of their limits. Or they'd slip and grip lock alternatively left and right and probably would get frustrated out of the sport or learn anyway. So from learning curve point of view why wouldn't anti slip devices be allowed in gloves for competition? I'd be perfectly happy to live with limited use in rain or below summer temperatures say 15 degrees Celsius too.

Not being a chemist (cough Chuck) i have read that polyurethane (most/all? premium plastics) is highly carcinogenic when powdered. And that is exactly what you get with coarse tape/glove whatever even in removing flash from the disc so in driving at least. Possibly in approaches and putts too in unlucky cases. Throwing to rocks and glass shards does that in smaller amounts naturally. Maybe rubber discs are more healthy.

What is your opinion about new types of grip enhancers and which kinds would be allowed by the rules? I don't want to put anti slipping tape to my skin because the glue ain't designed for human contact most likely and could be extremely hazardous to health.

Short version: Rough tape on the other side works wonders for grip in wet and most likely cold conditions. Like you'd never believe. Summer time extended. More sports per year=more health and fun=everyone wins=IMO this should be allowed for international health benefits for all of disc golfing kind. Peace and thanks for reading and your feedback in advance.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby Stringbean » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:05 pm

I've thought about using one of those rubber finger tip things that bank Tellers use. Not sure if that is legal or not.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:18 am

I'd hate to call it too but from testing with sports tape in the rain that sort of stuff seems to peel off from over the finger tip. I was thinking that if there was a glove that has inbuilt "sand paper" or that kind of super grippy rubber maybe it could resolve grip issues as long as it is deemed to be within rules. There are disc golf gloves out there already but i haven't heard of any complaints against them in competition. If one was able to procure super grippy rubber and melt it on top of a regular glove that might be and easy solution especially if some sand or equivalent was sprinkled on in moderation. So far i've had difficulty in finding light enough durable gloves that are also tight enough to not slip or crumple. There is a glove manufacurer in town that i might be able to raid for a suitable model if i could get tacky and durable enough rubber. Melting that could be stinky and potentially hazardous business or just a mess.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby Stringbean » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:42 am

The finger tip things (used for sorting paper) slip over the finger. They come in different sizes, if you get a smaller size, there is no way it would come off. Plus they have little bumps which would allow for water to be displaced rather than being trapped under the rubber (think radials vs. slicks). Give it a try, it could be a cheap and readily available solution.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby 7ontheline » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:58 am

I'm not sure about gloves or adding adhesive to increase grip but there are some solutions to slippage. I keep the Prodiscus basic line JOKERi and RESPECTi for added feel when its wet. What about the added texture on the Sinus or embossing on the Ti?
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 pm

Ti is very slick even in 70F without the rough surface which is not helpful enough for me in 60F for consistency so going to 10F and below... Sinus and Spike in Zero, hmm aren't they OOP, in any case they are one of the easiest discs to grip when wet and that was one reason i used the Spike as my putter and even driving putter for two years or so? Even Prodiscus plastics are too slick (especially premium) in winter or when wet if you have enough water to slosh around from the wet part to between the disc and the thumb like happened to me. That can be cured with more towels so that the whole disc is dry when you emerge from rain shelter and throw fast enough to not let the disc become wet again. Of course even that ain't enough in the worst downpours. Lost my chances to challenge for a win once with Ions slipping out not having anything grippier putterwise with me. Prodiscus plastics are good enough i suppose for those who don't have slick skin and don't have stress relieving automation gone to overdrive.

Anyway immagonnahafta warm up the discs electrically (Hotronic Footwarmer e4+) which may sound like a solution but in freezing conditions but even that ain't a perfect solution. Sure if i have the time to get the plastic to summer temps it is gonna be as tacky as it can be normally in the summer with no grip problems i hope (just got 'em and haven't had snow and cold enough temps to test them out) but past experience has shown that warm discs (reusable warmer packs work for too short a time in these temps and i loathe to waste disposables) melt the snow around them and by the time you've gotten to your disc the melted water has frozen to the disc. Even rain has the unfortunate tendency to not be safe around electricity. Given enough time Footwarmer might work and is probably fine in practice and casual rounds in the winter Zip Loced but melting ice from a disc and then drying it up in competition with the 30 second rule ain't easy. At least my fingers should be warmer so the skin can be tackier than normal in the cold.

If there is an advantage to winter it is that the water is frozen in place on the disc so there's nothing to shift to between the fingers and the disc after melting and drying up the disc in the part where you grip. Another downside to using electricity might be not being able to use bees wax like i have for added grip. Warm electric panel+wax=a mess and removing the wax from the disc. I don't know if using wax has ever been challenged in the rules before so who knows about that ruling how it would go. Other grip enhancers have been allowed in the rules and named specifically in some cases. One of which has been named thanks to Mark Ellis because it is his favorite. Too bad i haven't found a supply of that stuff locally to try it. And have forgotten which one it was. Maybe i should venture into rule book. Anyway i'm sure anything adhesive on the disc warmed up ain't gonna be good when one puts the warmer back into the pocket. Because that would be dirrrrty.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby Spinthrift » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:59 am

I have used this bowlers grip cream in wet conditions and it definitely improves grip, so much so one has to be careful to only use a smidgeon.
http://www.bowlingindex.com/store/merch ... de=GR-CNSC
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby itlnstln » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:15 pm

Spinthrift wrote:I have used this bowlers grip cream in wet conditions and it definitely improves grip, so much so one has to be careful to only use a smidgeon.
http://www.bowlingindex.com/store/merch ... de=GR-CNSC


I wonder if that's tourney legal. I don't see why not. You can rub your hands in the dirt, and I usually keep wet wipes in my bag for general hand cleaning.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:52 pm

Thanks for the tip i'll try it. At least some other grip enhancers are specifically allowed in the rules. I found a retailer a couple of drives away from me so i need to try that stuff soon :-) I'm volunteering a disc golf lesson to a nearby school PE class today with a chance of rain so it'd be great if these guys are open before that so that the kids can enjoy throwing as much as they can. I just thought of using the footwarmer on the underside of the flight plate to warm up the disc so that the heating element won't get messy and i hope that will be enough to warm the rim without touching the rim to keep the smudging down. I hope this will reduce my slip issues as much as possible because i get raped by the automated health conservation reflexes bad enough. I don't need any more hassle from skin issues.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:49 pm

I took the footwarmers out of the charger after the initial charging and tested them in room temperature. The warmer has a hot spot where the heating element electronics touch the heating plate in the center. It is hot on the 75 % power to touch the center and warm on the side with little fear of getting burned when in a Minigrip pouch which is a Finnish alternative to Zip Locs. I only touched the plate side not the electronics through the pouch at 100 % and got the tingly sensation warning of getting burned according to the manufacturer fairly quickly. The warmth drops off quickly as one moves the fingers away from the center of the plate but it was hot to touch even at the edge of the plate at 100 % power not so much at 75 %.

The interesting thing disc golf wise was that holding the plate against the bottom of the flight plate at 100 % power warmed up the top to above body temperature in less than 10 seconds but the rim was unaffected. When applied directly to the rim the straight heating element would only touch the rim in two places in a very small area of the disc and not heat it up noticeably. I can't be sure without testing in cold weather but i'd imagine that trying to heat the rim would be useless in cold weather without a bent heater element because the mass of the wing absorbs so much heat energy that trying to heat the flight plate would allow the rim to cool down or the other way around. I'm not about to bend the heater element on purpose because it seems that it'll bend accidentally being fairly flimsy. It is designed to be resting on the shoe sole so not much bending resistance is called for in the designed use.

I tested only with an EZE Mercy and the disc flight plate top didn't really become significantly grippier from the extra temperature no matter which side the heater was on. The temperature of the disc never raised as high as a free heater element hot spot gets either on the plate or the electronics side because the mass and dissipation area of the disc is so large. Getting the disc hotter than the body is a good sign but in 10F outside things might look a lot worse. The good thing is that having a very hot day temp under the hot spot in room temperature has some room to get cooler before the disc gets slicker and in 10F any warming up of the disc is bound to help. Unfortunately i don't think that there is enough power to warm up a really cold disc like one at 10F because there is so much cold mass to dissipate the heat and so cold air to cool the disc.

The weather forecast for today is 56F so not bad for this time of year but for me the discs are significantly slicker leading to uncertainty in shot planning and execution worsening the scores at least from the extra tension mentally if not physically. Too often physically too so i really hope that i can "extend the summer" a bit. As if the air and my body would work like in warmer weather. I'll get back with outdoors results later today and also in colder weather once it arrives.

BTW the warmer battery is 4.8 volt 2 ampere hour model and the manufacturer claims a little over 2 hour working time at full power. in winter this power may not be enough to even get the flight plate under the thumb to summer temps but it remains to be seen. So i would not go much lower in heating power than 9W for winter use. It may not even be enough. Inside a shoe it probably is way more than enough at least until really cold weather sets in and the manufacturer warns against using the full power for more than 3 minutes. I'd think that you can get burned in less time than that if you're unlucky.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:07 am

The importer of Columbia was familiar with the product line but hadn't heard of that cream because wet weather ain't an issue in Finnish bowling.

For today's test i kept the Footwarmer inside a low density polyethylene bag (Zip Loc equivalent) so i don't know how badly it sapped the heating power of the system. Rain and melted snow ain't great for electronics so i the pouch ain't coming off any time soon.

My skepticism concerning the cooling of the heating element in colder air proved to be too true. In 54F the discs are so much colder than in room temperature that at 100 % power pre cooking the element to as hot as it'll go and then applying it to the top of the flight plate produced a cool small patch for a short time instead of a cold disc. So no go in that department in the winter. The Footwarmers are designed to be used in a tight space with plenty of insulation from the surroundings so no wonder it doesn't have enough power to warm up a disc in this weather. Put into jacket pocket 75 % (the top recommended power level) it warmed me nicely. Gripping the hot spot from both sides warmed up the skin of the thumb, index finger and middle finger wonderfully well. In this temperature my skin was as grippy as it has ever been. That is a tremendous success. There was the lightest of drizzle a part of the time and toweling the disc dry was a no brainer and i can't tell if that made the discs cooler than the air. No matter the power constraints mean that to get hotter results i'd need to cut the warming element but it ain't gonna happen soon meaning i don't think so because i don't know it the plate is passive or is there are electrical wires in there and even if that amped up the heat in the hot spot it could destroy the heating electronics or burn me or set something on fire. So no go. I thought of pre warming one disc in the bag if is build one disc sized pocket into my bag with a lot of thermal insulation and maybe heat reflecting film from emergency blanket. The one i have claims to reflect back 99 % of body heat so given a small enough air volume there might be a slight rise in the temperature of a disc maybe even enough to keep the disc from being frozen in the winter. I'm toying with this idea now. I probably need to wait for colder weather to see if i have enough grip for long enough on a frozen disc with warmed up fingers. I'm cautiously optimistic about that because the body is warm so it doesn't require a lot of extra heating to get the skin grippy. Sure a 0F disc cools the skin fast but i don't think i need to hold on to the disc too long anyway.

Beeswax is used for skin care products moisturizing the skin and doing other beneficial stuff so having that on the disc and not heating the disc directly should give the best of both worlds keeping the disc tacky with or without electrical heating.

There are other electrical heating systems and judging by reading many user testimonials at Amazon from many products all share the hot spot problems save for very expensive units that have copper wires all over that break easily in use if used hard (like lifting a bag) but there are steel wired ones too. Because Footwarmers come in pairs i was thinking that warming me up with one unit in the jacket pocket eases up finger coldness and tackiness issues (hopefully, works great at 54F) and possibly pre warming one disc at a time in the bag could help at times at least if a disc is left to unfreeze for long enough. So i'm fairly optimistic at least for the early and late parts of the winter where the temperatures aren't the most extreme.

More later when i get that grip cream and apply beeswax to discs and warm up my fingers with the footwarmer simultaneously. I was topping out at 410' with more clothing on that in the summer so i'm not really losing out a lot at all vs what i got in the summer. That is great in "extending the summer" but the real test with cold weather is still to come and i have yet to throw on courses. This session was during and mostly after hosting a PE class for youths in a soccer field beside their school.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby Spinthrift » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:13 am

JR - there are other brands/type of bowling grip cream, too. If you guys have bowling alleys then their pro shops should have something similar.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:11 pm

The importer i talked to said that he has never heard anyone complain about not being able hold on to the balls. The only problem he had heard of here were sweaty hands and they had Columbia wipes with some type of powder that ain't magnesium we thought. I've tried dry and liquid mg and no dice. Sweaty hands aren't a problem for me and according to the importer local players think that added tackiness leads to the ball sticking for a while not releasing cleanly which makes the situation worse. Am i right in thinking that tacky creams for bowling are meant for hot humid weather when the sweat comes back to the hands right after wiping or cold weather? Temps in the bowling alleys here are constantly nice so there is no need for tacky creams.

There is another bowling alley not too far away but i think they might belong to the same chain. Internet detecting to do. I'm ordering various items from Amazon UK soon anyway so getting that brand is no biggie. I saw a program on TV about pole dancers and training and they said that grip enhancers are a huge deal and one user comment on the Columbia grip cream was from a pole dancer saying it was the best grip enhancer she had tried. Promising. I let you decide which is promising :-)

In which temperature ranges have you used the grip cream and how tacky it is vs plastics in production in cold weather? 32F and have you thrown in 10F or below with it? The trouble with strong man event rock lifting is that even their "cold weather" tacky stuffs get hard and slick even in 50F according to my reading. I imagine bowling stuff ain't designed to below freezing temps and might get slicker in the winter.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby JR » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:37 pm

48F morning round with the Footwarmer in my pocket for a test only at 75 % because that reduces the hassle of taking the pouch out and fiddling with the temp settings because the 100 % setting is not sustainable without risks and turns to 75 % after 3 minutes and i don't want to push the override just yet. The results were so and so at 75 %. It worked but too marginally for comfort. This was a single man round and was overtaken by two guys but i was in tourny mode wiping the discs thoroughly and before that trying to wipe as much mud from the discs to the grass. Taking it to a competition setting also needing to take out the Footwarmer out of the pocket adjusting the temps and putting it back to the pocket is something that's gonna slow down the group a lot and force me to slow down leaving the basket for the next tee. Or the 30 second rule would be broken.

It took a while to warm up my skin to as good as it would get at that power which was just sufficient for good grip which is way more than normal. Normally blowing to my fingers doesn't produce good enough results not it did. This was with dry skin after work (i must wash my hands according to the law often). I also didn't put any moisturizer in my hand on purpose at work or before it to make my skin normally nonchalantly dry. I also didn't wear a glove to maximize the cooling down of the skin and also dropping the body temp to simulate what happens in colder temperatures. It seems mandatory that the Footwarmer has to be operated at 100 % when it gets colder and the argan oil that's helped some with my skin dryness has to be used and a mitten should be used. That seems to force another test namely getting a large enough mitten to house my hand and the warmer.

All in all this version worked quite nicely indeed grip wise but it is a hassle and consumes time and might very well be too difficult to perform to the best results in a competition especially if you have the honors. So the added hassle or perhaps not with the mitten and using 100 % power could significantly lengthen the good skin grip part of the year here where good weather is only a third of the year. So far so good but will it make the conditions even somewhat tolerable for more than half a year remains to be seen. Of course must do everything right once it gets colder but the difference between 100 % power and 75 % is large enough to possibly get good results even in around 32F. Based on the hot spot being as cool as everything else in 75 % and tingling at 100 % and having room for improvement in skin fat content and putting a mitten on i think there is certainly room to improve. 48F 75 % meant that there was not too much time to hold the disc before the disc cooled the skin to less grippy. I had enough time to set up well and do a slow mock throw before the actual throw problem free. The catch is that it wasn't raining. That would cool down things a lot. So i can't declare even partial victory yet.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Rain grip issues (solution?)

Postby Spinthrift » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:18 pm

JR wrote:In which temperature ranges have you used the grip cream and how tacky it is vs plastics in production in cold weather?

It doesn't get real cold in Charlotte. I've used it with temps in the teens and 20sF. I use it mainly when it's cold and wet. And it's not really a cream, it's more like a paste and a little goes a very long way.
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