MVP Neutron Axis and Vector

[discspeed]

http://i.imgur.com/DsiAk.jpg
I finally received my test Neutron Axis and Vectors about 2 hours ago...The red Vector is 173.5 scaled, yellow Vector 176, blue Axis 177, and pink Axis 178. The red Vector is pretty flat, and the other Vector and both Axis have moderate domes.

All of the discs grip awesome...they feel better in the hand than the proton imo, and the difference in feel between plastics is greater to me in the mids than the putters. Just sliding the N mids around in my hands I can feel much more tackiness on the inside of the rim than the proton mids.

I didn't get to throw them as much as I would have liked, but I did get to the field tonight and got a dozen or throws with each. I was mostly just throwing oak tree to oak tree, trying to work each disc fairly straight from distances probably in the 260'-330' range. The Vectors flew like Vectors stability-wise, straight with a late but strong fade when powered, overstable when underpowered. They did seem faster and a touch longer than proton Vectors...Same results as I've found with the putters in N vs. P. I was especially pleased with the flat red 174...This is the lightest Vector I've thrown, and it was probably my fav of the bunch tonight. It glided better and was faster than the heavier Vectors, making it a lot more workable with less power. I could see this disc becoming a workhorse. The heavier yellow one flew more overstable and dropped a bit faster, but was pretty similar.

The Axis both seemed quite HSS...more than protons. I didn't get to test them in any wind, but I got zero turn out of either. The lighter of the two was a bit more LSS. The pink was flying beautifully for me, very easy to get shots with no turn and very little fade with. Both seemed a tick faster and better gliding than proton Axis. They remind me sort of the more HSS Coyotes/Makos/domey Buzzzes. To be honest I've been having issues with my P Axis lately and I was considering putting something else in my bag...These will give the Axis one last chance to stay in my bag because they seem really good so far.

I'm super excited to take these to the course tomorrow so I can compare them more closely to the mids in my normal lineup.
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[jubuttib]

So the least gyroscopic Vector (the lightest) was your favorite? =)

[discspeed]

So the least gyroscopic Vector (the lightest) was your favorite? =)

I'm not certain MVP is doing things the same as they used to (using the same cores and changing weight in the overmold)...My lighter N discs feel just a bit more flexible, leading me to wonder if they are running more weights in the cores now. The lighter N Vector doesn't fly like MVP's lighter discs have flown for me in the past (they have flown more overstable).

[discspeed]

I just got back from my local pitch and putt where I gave my new N discs a good workout alongside my standard mids (Beat FR Axis/Vector, newish Eclipse Vector, Flying Squirrel).

Vector 1 (flat/173.5/red)--Just as I described yesterday, this is an awesome disc and probably my favorite still. Worked with a tiny bit of anny it can fly on beautiful gliding straight S turns, and powered flat it it flies like a midrange teebird. This disc is easily the most versatile Vector I've thrown...I hope MVP continues to produce lighter discs, because I think there is a lot of untapped potential there.

Vector 2 (moderate dome, 176, yellow)
This disc is just a badass overstable Vector...It holds flat longer than some of the more overstable protons I have, but then bites even harder at the end...I think this has to do with the N plastic simply shrinking a little more resulting in a slightly lower profile, slightly faster disc.

2 Axis (pink 178, blue 177, both moderate domes)
The two Axis fly pretty similarly to each other. However, they are quite a different animal from the Protons. To me, the Axis feels a little better with some dome, so that along with the grippier plastic really makes these feel much better in my hand. Flightwise these are flying much more like midrange versions of the Anode than my other Axis do...Meaning they are more HSS and drop slower than the older Axis. I like my FR green Axis for it's stability, but honestly it flies like it weighs 10 grams more than it does, dropping quickly as soon as it loses speed. While these N Axis are still spin hungry, they have a lot more carry at the end of their flight. While fairly domey compared to most P Axis, these N Axis don't fly like the domey pink FR Axis either, as they are a lot less LSS (and perhaps more HSS). These discs have me quite excited as they really seem like something new to me...I'm anxious to see what they think about a headwind though before I get too excited. If they do take some wind, they will surely be one of the better mids on the market in terms of high HSS and minimal LSS.

Here's my verdict(opinion), and I don't expect to ever go back on this...Neutron > stiff Proton for feel and flight. Will soft N also be better than soft P? I'll reallly need a soft N Anode to determine that, so hopefully MVP "makes a decision" soon on whether or not people "want" soft Neutron (THEY DO). I putt with soft Anodes, and the stiffer Neutron Anode does not compete with it for putting duties.

[JR]

Neutron Axis sounds tasty but i'm worried about one issue that another gyroscopic mid the Gateway Sabre shares with the Proton Axis. Namely moving a lot sideways per missed degree of hyzer angle thanks to the great glide and staying on that angle for most of the flight thanks to the gyroscopics. Favoring straight shots on courses and local courses emphasizing it locking to flat easily even from a slightly missed hyzer angle is a great property for a point and shoot laser disc. Proton Axis wasn't HSS enough to survive unclean releases any more easily than a Comet so how does the Neutron Axis fare in those aspects? Also how much less spin does the Neutron Axis need vs the Proton to not turn over with a slightly OATed throw?

[discspeed]

I'm not sure about comparing the Sabre/Axis as the two discs have too many differences, but I do know what you are talking about. It's one of the problems I've had with my proton Axis...If I throw them flat they turn too much/too fast, and if I throw them with slight hyzer they mostly don't turn at all. This makes it difficult to throw even shallow S turns, making the disc kind of a one trick pony. And this one trick is something a beat Vector does rather well, making the proton Axis kind of obsolete in my game. I think the dome on the N Axis helps slow the lateral movement down, allowing for more forward moving annies. Already I've had consistent results throwing my new Axis slightly turned and getting slow and gradual forward dominant movement. Last night I had a max weight Z Comet with me, and honestly the N Axis flew as much like the Comet as they did my proton Axis.

[JR]

How about straight shots and the tendency to punish hard missing a lot sideways with 1 degree from flat like the Proton Axis did?

[discspeed]

How about straight shots and the tendency to punish hard missing a lot sideways with 1 degree from flat like the Proton Axis did?

Like I said above, I think the dome buffers the lateral movement, especially if the disc is given a slight(not sure about degrees) anhyzer or hyzer release. When I threw my new N Axis like I would throw my old ones for a right turn to the ground type shot they resisted turning at all. So far there is no HS turn, so a slight hyzer release results in a straight-to-hyzer type shot, but any more than the slightest hyzer and the disc wanted to hold the angle and turn with it. All in all though they do fly more forward on turning shots than the protons (not sure if it is because of dome or plastic), but I still can't say for sure what they will do in your hands.

[keltik]

Really and truly 1° is imperceptible to the human eye and especially hand. This is interesting news from the MVP front. Rumors of Soft Neutron.

so when is the Volt coming out?

[discspeed]

so when is the Volt coming out?

[keltik]

you know when I was a kid I always wondered why the kids in the commercial never choked that bird to death for stealing their tootsie roll pops.

[JR]

I certainly can't throw within 1 degree accuracy most of the time. With a glidey gyroscopic disc it is easy to see the results of a single degree miss from a flat shot because the disc moves a heck of a lot sideways. Especially if you throw relative to an easy reference like a tunnel and hit the trees. It is weird how many people think perceptions can't be trained. Do you also claim that there are no golden ears or tasters etc? Flat shot is the easiest angle to see and a shot that ain't flat is also easy to see right? If not maybe you should train perception or get your eye sight checked. Are you aware of the fact that there are many professions where the use of senses is a must and people need to train or not be able to perform? A bank teller told me that each experienced bank teller could tell if a stack of notes was full or missing a note, two or more when speaking of stacks fresh from mint so there is a standard size that the tellers handle constantly. I've used different senses at work and in hobbies so i leave you with a bit from the TV series Kung Fu: An apprentice asks a blind master how can he hear a grasshopper walking and the answer was how can you not? Open your eyes

[JHern]

According to my flight simulator, 1 degree differences in hyzer translate roughly to 5 ft lateral (left-right) shifts in flight pattern when throwing over-stable plastic at ~350 ft distances. It increases to something like 10 ft lateral shifts at 500 ft distances. Thus...one degree difference in hyzer may not be easily perceptible to the naked eye, but it can still be detected in the lateral movement of the disc in flight. When you combine the perception of lateral disc motion with the resolution of tilt, together, I think an experienced disc thrower with good eyesight can probably resolve 1 degree hyzer.

[JR]

I think everyone knows that different discs move different amounts sideways at the same hyzer angle. Axis in Proton moving one of the largest amounts sideways per each degree away from flat. Even without considering the initial part of the flight where pushing through straight despite the tilt separates discs from each other in a large way. By the way there is a backup to seeing differences that John mentioned. If you go to a field and throw above a straight line on that field you can measure if you don't trust your eyes how far off the line the disc stopped and yes again you need to look for skip and roll differences or if you prefer the landing point to remove those from the picture.

[JHern]

I think everyone knows that different discs move different amounts sideways at the same hyzer angle.

Differences in the sideways/lateral acceleration of discs with the same (non-zero) hyzer angle, air speed, and mass exactly reflect differences in the lift force of the disc (it is the sideways tilt of the disc that directs the axis-parallel lift force to the side, causing it to move right or left). The force is not instantaneous, as you note, since the disc can push through hyzer for a time until the air flow around the disc equilibrates with the disc's orientation and air speed, then it will "feel" the hyzer and only then begin to move sideways.

Axis in Proton moving one of the largest amounts sideways per each degree away from flat.

=>Great lift force, good "glide."