seabas22 wrote:I'm not sure how measurable things are due to individuality, but feel for everyone is fairly constant.
Feel for what? We always say "feel ain't real" in golf and I'm fairly certain the same applies to disc golf and virtually every other athletic endeavor.
seabas22 wrote:I won't argue there are differences in rhythm and posture due to individuality, however most players I see asking for critiques are so far off any kind of decent posture/balance and lack any kind of rhythm, they don't put themselves in any kind of position to hit.
That's different and not what I'm talking about here. We adjust people's postures in golf as well, because it will affect their ability to do Key #1 or Key #4 or something properly. So posture likely fits in the same way in DG. Some players are a bit taller, some are a bit more bent over, some have more or less knee bend than others, etc.
seabas22 wrote:Their shoulders get out ahead of the hips, start to pull hard before any bracing of the front side, lose bracing on the rear side.
Golf has sequencing too, but Jim Furyk's sequencing is quite different than Steve Stricker's sequencing or Tiger Woods'. They all follow the very generic "knees, hips, torso, shoulders, arms, hands, clubhead" sequence but the rates, the numbers, the measurements are all over the place, both in ranges (for example, hip angle at impact among those players) and rates.
seabas22 wrote:Most are essentially coming over the top/slicing and striking at the ball(disc) instead of out to the target, which you should be able relate to.
Bruce Lietzke came over the top and had a pretty nifty career on the PGA Tour.
He still had all five keys. His diagonal sweetspot path was simply oriented farther to the left with a clubface controlled to make the path work.
seabas22 wrote:It's very easy to see when someone is not releasing heavy momentum out to the target and their posture will not be setup for that release. Players should be able to find/feel their own natural rhythm and balance/posture with the perpetual motion drill or working around the disc. Players should be able to feel that release out to the target with the hammer drill or closed shoulder drill.
I agree, but "their own natural rhythm" is not measurable, nor is it a commonality. Those are some of the restrictions I've put on this. We considered "good sequencing" or something as a Key in the 5SK golf system, but it was ruled out for the reasons listed above: there's no way to measure it in a way that yields commonalities and differentiates it from the other Keys. Weight Forward (Key #2) describes HOW to get the weight forward, and it addresses most of the sequencing issues anyway.
So I've already listed "weight forward" as a possible Key in Disc Golf also, and there's a lot more to it than just the numbers. In golf, as I just said, it includes teaching players HOW to get the weight forward. It's not done by moving your head forward (you could get 85-95% pressure forward by doing that). The Key is more "weight forward PROPERLY" (sliding the knees and hips forward as they rotate), which addresses sequencing without being so restrictive as to eliminate 35% or 80% of PGA Tour pros or something.
seabas22 wrote:I'm more of a disc golf Shawn Clement student which is more based on dynamic feel, than say Stack and Tilt.
Shawn Clement's popularity is wildly overstated. He says a lot of things but doesn't do them in his own swing. Not a fan. And S&T is one way, one swing. Properly done it accomplishes the 5SK, but there are other patterns and swings out there which accomplish it as well.
Feels aren't often real. Make no mistake: they're very real to the people doing them, but you can give the same feel to five different golfers and get five different results. We've had people increase shoulder turns by telling them NOT to turn their shoulders (and instead feel something else - I won't get into the details).
I suppose without understanding golf instruction at a fairly deep level, it's tough for me to relate what the 5SK are to other "instructor" minded people. It's crystal clear to regular golfers - if they do these five things, or work on improving those things, they'll get better. That's it. But to an instructor there's a bit more nuance - how the head stays steady, how the weight gets forward, how the left wrist is flat at impact (which isn't really about the left wrist per se), etc.
So I hope my post has not come off poorly. I'm not really disagreeing or anything - I'm just discussing, and hopefully this all comes off as I intend it - as polite discourse.
Blake_T wrote:If disc golf were as established as a baseball or golf swing it would be a bit different but there isn't a set doctrine that is able to achieve the timing needed for a disc golf throw yet. it's not like golf, where you can find rec guys driving with pro level power and just have accuracy/consistency, and control issues that keep the, from destroying everyone.
I am not entirely sure I can agree with that. You rarely, rarely find golfers driving it as far as PGA Tour pros (certainly not consistently), and I'm guessing there are almost as many disc golfers who can throw a disc pretty far pretty early in their careers. Speed is speed, and both sports require timing.
Blake_T wrote:In dg, the same things needed to throw accurately with power are needed to throw far in general, and less than 1% of disc golfers are able to generate pro level power.
Yeah, I think that percentage is similar to golf.
Blake_T wrote:I used to think finding ideal body placement and positions was super important. There are 6-7 common body positions for almost every long throwing pro. There's another 6-7 timing/feel variables that are equally if not more important. You can mold yourself to hit all 7 body positions and still not throw far. You can throw far without hitting all 6-7 of the body positions if you have the timing, it just requires compensation for each missing position.
You can "hit positions" in golf and still not have speed, too, just as you can miss a few positions and still hit the ball far. I'm not seeing the differences you seem to be saying exist.
Blake_T wrote:11 years worth of teaching experience has shown me that teaching the timing is really difficult and probably the most important thing. Positions only become important when they are so bad that they block proper timing or when someone who has proper timing wants to throw even farther.
The golf instructors with whom I work daily call it "sequencing" and "rates" and I agree - the timing is difficult. Golf might even be more sensitive to it than disc golf given that the ball is sitting on the ground and you're controlling a clubhead, not just your hands (a larger radius with a terminal object moving much faster and needing to be struck more precisely).
But again, I'm partly playing devil's advocate, too. I hear what you're saying.
I just don't think that anyone here quite understands what I'm saying, and perhaps can't without a good knowledge of the golf swing and how it's taught and has been taught. So I suppose I'll just say "thanks" and let this thread go to pasture for now.