Why is my lighter disc turning over?

[supremekizzle]

Hello all! I'm brand new to this board and pretty new to disc golf in general and this post shall take my DGR virginity, so to speak. I've been playing for almost a month now and am having an issue. For reference I throw right hand forehand or sidearm. I started out with a champion eagle 168ish and have gotten pretty consistent throwing it, but I recently purchased a Blizzard Wraith 150g because I've seen some guys get some massive distance and accuracy with it so I thought it might help me too. Wrong. Whenever I throw it, it will turn over (i think that's the right term?) to the left. What I mean is, upon release, the disc will turn almost sideways to the left and precede to hit the dirt without ever coming back to the right. What does it sound like I'm doing wrong? Throwing too hard? Not enough spin? I would appreciate any help because this is driving me nuts! Thanks a lot.

[JR]

Welcome. Either your form is not good enough of the Wraith is super understable individual or you have a lot of power. Blizzard discs and other soft plastics that allow the Wraiths to be made in 150 wear fast with use and will soon flip over even with good form. It may be as simple as adding more hyzer angle. Try a 6" arm movement mostly from the wrist flicking forward and get the most power from the run up and hips turning with a palm up finish. Emphasizing the wrist slick speed and just before the end of the movement stop the wrist as best you can to spin the disc. If the disc doesn't turn over hard add a few inches of arm movement until it does and back off then. The arm must follow through on the same line as it did before the rip of the disc from the hand. You might need to tighten the wrist a fair deal to avoid rolling it counter clockwise.

For new players mid range discs are the longest recommended discs until the form has been cleaned up. A disc that will keep growing with you that is fairly long for a mid and doesn't have a huge power and form requirement is Coyote from Innova but Westside Warship and MVP Axis aren't bad discs either. Each of them are fast and long for mids. Sidearms have the added disadvantage vs a backhand throw that the spin rate is less so the discs will start to fade earlier and turn over more easily. And that makes those mids i suggested more difficult to learn with than some more overstable models but they will handle the majority of holes because the majority of holes favor left finishes and with sidearm the discs naturally fight going left. Because the fade for sidearms goes to the right. If any of these seem too touchy at first they will get better in time but before that a Z Buzzz is a good FH disc tolerating much more abuse.

Learning a backhand gives you more distance.

[allsport1313]

I can't get into all the intricacies and diagnoses like some other guys here can, but I throw a lot of sidearm and also own a 150g blizzard wraith That disc isn't very forgiving for learning players. It is super squirly and tends to accentuate any mistakes you make in your throw. It also sounds like you might be trying to throw a little too hard. This happens to me sometimes when I try to sidearm for max distance. Remember smooth is far

[supremekizzle]

Thanks for the input guys. I thought it might be something like overpowering it but was unsure. It's funny that you mention midrange disc's because I've been doing pretty well with a tee bird but figured I would never get the distance unless I got a light distance driver. Sidearm is something that I've been trying to wean myself off of but it just comes so naturally even though people have told me the benefits of backhand. What actually separates a midrange from a distance driver? Why is it more forgiving than a distance disc? Thanks again

[allsport1313]

I meant the 150g blizzard wraith is unforgiving. But if you want more distance I don't think that you should go to 150-class blizzard to get it... keep honing your flick and that Teebird will take you to 300+ feet sidearm. What is your max D?

[supremekizzle]

I'm unsure what exactly my max D is. I understand that the lighter one will be less forgiving but I was just wondering why that is? And why a midrange would also be easier to learn on? I guess I'm moving more into the physics aspect but I'm curious why disc's act the way they do depending on if their midrange, distance, putter, etc and how the weight might impact the flight as well. Just my curious mind always trying to figure everything out I suppose.

[JR]

We're all for exploring neat details because this is the number one disc nerding site around outside the industry and we have some members working in DG. Generally speaking all disc classes have flipping, straight and non flipping hard fading discs. The Teebird is a good reliable tight place sidearm disc. People have thrown well over 600' on flat land with sidearms but that club is small. Backhand the Teebird held the world distance record for 45 minutes with a 247 meter throw, that's over 800' so it is more the thrower than the disc for your distance potential.

Mids that are straight are way easier to place accurately on the fairway because they can be point and shoot devices. Those discs usually won't tolerate unclean form FH even though they have some user error protection backhand. A great difference between mids and drivers is nose angle sensitivity. A mid thrown nose up won't fade out so early if thrown nose up so it is more forgiving to that error. The tricky thing is that sidearm is not as susceptible to that form flaw as backhand at least out to 300' power with drivers. If a mid pops up and stalls chances are that it won't be moving fast enough to move a lot sideways. A driver can. The wicked thing is that a straight mid thrown fast and high without stalling will move more sideways than a high non stalling driver in most cases.

Straight mids flip over easier and wobble for longer than drivers so they penalize more with off axis torque. Something that could be hampering your progress. So they are great diagnostic tools for cleaning up your form by showing that you did something wrong. Hopefully armed with enough information also just what you did wrong so that you can try to correct that with the next throw.

The really difficult test is to drive with even more nose angle insensitive and OAT sensitive straight putters. There are plenty overstable putters and mids that mask a lot of user error while being fairly nose angle insensitive. No driver is truly tolerant to nose up throwing but often times putters of all sorts and about half to two thirds of mids won't penalize you too hard on the course if you throw nose up.

Depending on the disc the stabilizing force of the spin may be weaker than with a heavy version. A lighter disc should be able to be thrown faster out of your hand than a heavier. At higher speeds you can make the disc exceed the cruise speed where it is supposed to be flat. The more you exceed the straight flight speed of the disc the more the disc will turn.

There may be a personal grip/form issue at play with lower weights too. You can hold the disc longer for the same grip power with the lighter disc. If the disc pivots more and the front drops lower than with an earlier slipping out disc the nose angle is oriented front of the disc down. That angle of attack vs moment of inertia will turn the disc dramatically more. Throwing nose up is nigh impossible to turn the disc but throwing the front of the disc well lower than the rear is very helpful to getting the disc to turn over. Center of lift changes.

For a more physics i'll refer to our resident PhD in physics. John?

[supremekizzle]

Thanks for that great explanation JR. I think I'm going to drop down in speed and use a midrange or fairway driver until I clean up my form and get a good technique down. Hell, it seems like there are very few times you actually need a real high speed driver if someone was able to throw a Teebird 800' so maybe I'll never even throw something like a Katana if I don't have to. I know I'm not the only noob to come to this sport and think that high speed=distance regardless of crap technique.

[JR]

800'+ is an exceptional and lucky throw in desert with thermals and the wind pushing the disc forward with a maximum distance line (super high s-curve riding the left rear wind). It is far from regular performance even for top throwers. Let alone for regular players. Many new players throw the farthest right off the bat with warp speeders not fairway drivers like the Teebird. That does not mean that they'd learn as fast as possible if they used warp speeders exclusively. Other than poor habits hampering future development in most ways. Nose angle dropping might be the only useful skill to pick up from using warp speed discs technique wise. Side arms benefit from wide rims comfort wise so it is a little better idea to use fast discs FH than BH for real rounds minimizing scores. Because anything that messes with your mind will add the chance of brain farts. Which can and often do start a vicious circle of frustration etc. ruining the round or the competition.

What i'm, saying that getting to try one wide winged disc for hand and finger dexterity and strengthening is not a bad thing used a little. As long as you always throw with the best possible disc for right now in scoring situations and with the best teaching tool in practice. You have to push beyond the comfort zone to learn every now and then but going all in Texas hold 'em each time will probably burn you sooner or later. Finding the right balance in both practice and competition is something everyone has to learn by doing themselves. Nobody can think and throw for you.