"Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby mikes919 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:12 am

One of the big keys in ball golf is your setup, your body position at address. We don't really get that in disc golf since our lead-in to the throw is a run-up. So the run-up itself becomes our address position. I would say that footwork and balance before the throw are a big separator between good players and beginners. Good players have a defined X-step with good balance and not a lot of lateral pressure on their feet. The best players throw nearly as well on a wet teepad as they do on a dry one, and that's because they are balanced and light on their feet into the throw.

1. Controlled and balanced X-step approach
2. Throwing motion on plane with intended flight path
3. Weight forward
4. Wrist snap
5. Nose control

In order of occurence, not necessarily importance. The big mistakes I see beginners make are:

1. Poor footwork, leading to falling-over, off balance throws
2. Throws that start low and end high at release, air bouncing the disc
3. Weight back
4. No snap at all, just arm movement
5. No nose angle control, usually nose up
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby iacas » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:12 pm

mikes919 wrote:One of the big keys in ball golf is your setup, your body position at address.

Setup is not a key, no. I think perhaps you jumped in to the conversation late and skimmed or didn't read the earlier posts. I think my first post talks a bit about why this is not a "Key" (simple version: it's nowhere near a commonality among golfers, nor is it really measurable). It's a preference, and different people will have different setups.

mikes919 wrote:1. Controlled and balanced X-step approach

This is for all BH throws, some of which don't have any steps or approaches. "Balance" would be under "weight forward" (done properly).

mikes919 wrote:2. Throwing motion on plane with intended flight path

Covered in the OAT Key.

mikes919 wrote:3. Weight forward

We agree.

mikes919 wrote:4. Wrist snap

Kind of being discussed...

mikes919 wrote:5. Nose control

Rolled into plane of disc control (nose AND wing).

Here's what I currently have (pulled the list from the DGCR thread):

Key #1 - Level Body
Key #2 - Weight Forward
Key #3 - Accelerating Pivot
Key #4 - Controlled Disc Plane
Key #5 - Controlled Torque

I don't like all of the words, and one or two might not even last, and we may add one or two, but I'm pretty happy with them right now.

Level Body talks about not bouncing up and down - your head, shoulders, arm, etc. will tend to maintain a fairly level position from reach-back to just after release.

Weight Forward is of course not just getting your weight forward but doing it properly.

Accelerating pivot is about the snap but is general enough. I don't particularly care for the wording of current Key #3, but it's talking about effective arm/hip/shoulder motion as well as the disc pivoting around your thumb/index finger.

Controlled disc plane takes into account the wing and nose angle for the desired release angle (hyzer/anhyzer/flat and controlling nose up/down/level).

Controlled Torque isn't the best phrase but it means either delivering no OAT or the desired OAT if for some reason the shot requires it. The arm angle is responsible for this, as is wrist rolling, so those acts go here (as "arm angle matches disc release" and "wrist doesn't roll to add OAT" and things like that).
Last edited by iacas on Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby mikes919 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:05 pm

Alright, sorry for trying to contribute. Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby iacas » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:35 pm

mikes919 wrote:Alright, sorry for trying to contribute. Sounds like you've got it all figured out.

Contributions are welcome, but (to be blunt) you didn't contribute anything because you didn't seem to read any of the earlier posts.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:21 pm

mikes919 has a definite point that should be included in the keys list in that it is common across all good players that you step lightly, not flat footed and that results in good balance, the ability to reach back far enough for great distance (another commonality among the majority with Uli and Scott Martin being the notable exceptions and Anthon being a halfway mark). A light stepping run also allows proper body positions and timing. Because there are three exceptions limiting their absolute maximum distance in favor of more control, which is more important, it doesn't mean that their conscious choice does not mean it is crucial to reach back far for best distance. Which was the only statistically significant finding in the thesis of Carlsen. It is absolutely crucial to a disc golf throw to step without being flat footed and reaching back far for distance and warrants the title key. I am not proficient in golf so i can't comment on analogies on that side but this is for disc golf right? So if those are one or two keys is a matter of taste and if you can lump one or both under some label with other stuff fine. My only argument is that they are both common enough and influential enough to throwing competitively that the term key should be pondered and debated carefully.

Contrast this: Steve Brinster and lately more and more it would seem Mike Moser seem to breaking key #1 all the time :-) So i posit that even though there may be exceptions among top players to any keys it does not mean that they aren't proficient enough to be able to be top performers thanks to other traits. So that shows how some keys aren't absolutely vital to performing well if you're good enough in other ways to compensate. If there were hard and fast requirements to throwing well which i think you were aiming for there would not be so many different throwing styles.

A different perspective is to think that it is very probable that disc golf has not had enough scientific study with widely available measured data to show the superiority of any form part so training and coaching is much trial and error with methods and individuals varying. So not much has been solidified yet because there is not enough overwhelming evidence about many issues. From that position i'd say developing keys is probably a work in progress for years to come with a moving target and unclear boundaries between keys and what makes the keys keys. And what should be done about the keys training and playing wise. Analysis in disc golf has only one leg over the side of the crib at this point and the results have rarely been shared to the public. Add semantics and bias, personal preferences etc. and you have a good base for an explanation into why so many wildy differing styles exist.

I think Blake has listed some commonalities among top players here earlier. I seem to recall the figure 7 and that he didn't name all of them. No remembrance about in which thread it was. I think that's over a year ago.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby iacas » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:06 pm

JR wrote:mikes919 has a definite point that should be included in the keys list in that it is common across all good players that you step lightly, not flat footed and that results in good balance,

FWIW we don't have "balance" in our golf's 5SK because if you maintain a Steady Head and do Weight Forward properly you remain in balance. It's a sub-component of a few Keys, basically, and it strikes me as being similar in disc golf, especially since balance is not entirely accurate in disc golf - you can't freeze at every position and maintain it, unmoving, like in golf. The very act of walking can be described as "falling and catching yourself repeatedly." :)

But okay, the light-footed stuff I'll talk about shortly...

JR wrote:the ability to reach back far enough for great distance (another commonality among the majority with Uli and Scott Martin being the notable exceptions and Anthon being a halfway mark).

I think that would be included in the key about accelerating pivot (which has a *terrible* name currently). Can less flexible players turn their shoulders and chest 180° away from the target? Or are they better off turning back a bit less? I don't know.

We don't include something like "105° shoulder turn" in golf's 5SK because not everyone is capable of doing this, even though 99% of pros do it, and we talk about how the shoulders work in (again) several of the Keys, including Keys #1 and #4 (golf).

JR wrote:A light stepping run also allows proper body positions and timing. Because there are three exceptions limiting their absolute maximum distance in favor of more control, which is more important, it doesn't mean that their conscious choice does not mean it is crucial to reach back far for best distance. Which was the only statistically significant finding in the thesis of Carlsen. It is absolutely crucial to a disc golf throw to step without being flat footed and reaching back far for distance and warrants the title key. I am not proficient in golf so i can't comment on analogies on that side but this is for disc golf right? So if those are one or two keys is a matter of taste and if you can lump one or both under some label with other stuff fine. My only argument is that they are both common enough and influential enough to throwing competitively that the term key should be pondered and debated carefully.

So which of the five Keys here would you eliminate? Rename and re-purpose? What, given the discussion, would your Keys be (whether there are 3, 4, 5, 8, or 9 or whatever):

Key #1 - Level Body
Key #2 - Weight Forward
Key #3 - Accelerating Pivot
Key #4 - Controlled Disc Plane
Key #5 - Controlled Torque

JR wrote:Contrast this: Steve Brinster and lately more and more it would seem Mike Moser seem to breaking key #1 all the time :-)

If that's the case, I'd probably consider it not a Key. As I've said, Keys have to be achievable, measurable, and an almost absolute commonality among the game's best. If you can easily name two people who aren't doing them, it's likely not a Key. :D

JR wrote:So i posit that even though there may be exceptions among top players to any keys it does not mean that they aren't proficient enough to be able to be top performers thanks to other traits.

I disagree. Remember, the Keys do not exclude expert disc golfers who have "personality" or "quirks." This guy has all five of the golf Keys despite the backswing you'll see here:



JR wrote:So that shows how some keys aren't absolutely vital to performing well if you're good enough in other ways to compensate.

Then they aren't "Keys" as I've defined them. Keys are absolute requirements and virtually absolute commonalities. Improving a Key should result in improving your motion and consequently your disc golf.

JR wrote:If there were hard and fast requirements to throwing well which i think you were aiming for there would not be so many different throwing styles.

I don't think there are as many different throwing styles as you think, when you break it down to actual Keys. I could show you golf swings that look almost nothing alike and have all sorts of differences, but they absolutely peg each of the 5 Simple Keys to golf. That's what makes them Keys. "Personality" or "quirks" or whatever aren't Keys.

JR wrote:A different perspective is to think that it is very probable that disc golf has not had enough scientific study with widely available measured data to show the superiority of any form part so training and coaching is much trial and error with methods and individuals varying.

If you think golf is somehow united in how it teaches, you really haven't talked to golf instructors much. :) Golf instruction is a mess. People out there don't even know the basic physics of what causes the ball to fly the way it does. Butch Harmon teaches players to keep the same flex in their back knee throughout their swing despite a) him not doing it himself in his own swing, and b) almost no top players doing it in their swings. And the "evidence" is simply using your eyes to watch, yet he won't do that.

Some of the "measurements" are simply done visually, as I said. Has the shaft passed the lead arm prior to impact in the golf swing? Yes or no? If no, then Key #3 might be successful. If it has, you've failed at Key #3. Same with Key #1: did your head stay relatively steady or not?

JR wrote:So not much has been solidified yet because there is not enough overwhelming evidence about many issues. From that position i'd say developing keys is probably a work in progress for years to come with a moving target and unclear boundaries between keys and what makes the keys keys.

I'd disagree, but at the same time, know that I realize I may be "forcing" the Keys the way I've defined them on to disc golf when really there might only be one Key, or two (I think Keys #4 and #5, and probably #1, are sure things, albeit perhaps with slightly different titles). Maybe there's too much variety in disc golf stances, shots, etc. In golf for example you make the same motion for a 300-yard shot as you do for one that's 120 yards - you just change clubs. That's not quite the same in disc golf.

But I'll also keep pushing on with this approach until I'm convinced it doesn't work. :)

JR wrote:And what should be done about the keys training and playing wise. Analysis in disc golf has only one leg over the side of the crib at this point and the results have rarely been shared to the public. Add semantics and bias, personal preferences etc. and you have a good base for an explanation into why so many wildy differing styles exist.

Just to be clear again, personal preferences aren't Keys. Jim Furyk has all 5SK in golf as did Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods despite how vastly different their swings looked, the fact that they used different equipment, etc.

JR wrote:I think Blake has listed some commonalities among top players here earlier. I seem to recall the figure 7 and that he didn't name all of them. No remembrance about in which thread it was. I think that's over a year ago.

I'd be very interested in reading that thread if it should come to you sometime! :) Thanks!

Thanks as always for the discussion. What Keys - with the understanding that they're commonalities to virtually ALL great players - would you have currently? Do you agree with #1, #4, and #5 (allowing for some wiggle room for slightly different titles)?

Thank you.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:06 pm

If you inserted what a researcher or developer of research methods would say of personal bias, semantics and whatnot you might not be so eager to try to squeeze reality to fit into a box labeled a key. IME few things fit into any kind of box. Reality seems to way shiftier than the boxes people use to help their thinking. Too bad the laws of nature do not seem to swayed by our perceptions and short hand for thinking. The brain can be incredibly slow in some operations so we have a built in weakness to cut corners when it comes to thinking and perceiving with our limited system. If we mulled over for more accuracy our reactions would be so slow that we would have been eaten ages ago. I'm being a bit advocatey :-D now it's a word if it wasn't yesterday because i'm cautious about due process. And i'm not so sure we can jump to conclusions with this little measured results in this sport. If you want to go into science and proveable repeatable things then the keys are force equals mass times acceleration and kinetic energy equals half the mass time the square of velocity. If you don't go into Einstein and later that showed that Newton couldn't explain everything in astrophysics. And people have much more inventions after Einstein. And i'm way out of my league with physics. More on this later but i'm not derailing this into philosophy of science because i don't consider myself to be competent enough in teaching research methods and it is off topic.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:19 pm

So if i were to hazard a guess as to what could stand up to studying by scientists as a key i am fairly comfortable in naming moving. Standing still needs a pretty stiff wind to get the disc out of your hand but how do you aim the wind? If you don't create it yourself :-) Anything more is subject to debate i'm afraid so at this point i need to leave things for later. I'm not sure even about your definitions for a key being proper to do the job right. And if they aren't i'm not sure if i'm competent enough or informed enough to lay down the criteria. So if we were thinking in terms of practical abstractions that are close enough to work with with caveats then it would be easier to do what you are attempting. I'm not trying to be a brake. A person contradicting and stopping everything. I'm doing this to get practical results out of naming the keys turned into practice and playing. And so far i think we have some disagreements. More on what differences and why i have differing opinions later. The problem is that commenting on everything takes a book. Really way too long posts and more issues pop up than i can address in a day. Or a few.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby iacas » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:37 pm

JR wrote:If you inserted what a researcher or developer of research methods would say of personal bias, semantics and whatnot you might not be so eager to try to squeeze reality to fit into a box labeled a key.

Again, perhaps this would be easier to discuss with someone who was familiar with both golf and disc golf, and maybe I'm "forcing" Keys on disc golf when really there aren't very many true commonalities, but until I'm convinced of that I'm going to keep pushing onward with this. :)

JR wrote:IME few things fit into any kind of box.

Five things do in a golf swing. :D

JR wrote:Reality seems to way shiftier than the boxes people use to help their thinking. Too bad the laws of nature do not seem to swayed by our perceptions and short hand for thinking. The brain can be incredibly slow in some operations so we have a built in weakness to cut corners when it comes to thinking and perceiving with our limited system.

That really doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic, though, JR. Impact lasts 400 microseconds in the golf swing but we can still comprehend it - quite easily, in fact - as well as the motions that lead up to it, and compensations, and so on. The golf swing involves pieces moving faster than in disc golf and with greater degrees of accuracy.

JR wrote:I'm being a bit advocatey :-D

I know. :) I appreciate it. :D

JR wrote:And i'm not so sure we can jump to conclusions with this little measured results in this sport.

Again, "visual" measurements suffice as well. We don't need to understand the intricate physics of what causes a disc to fly, we can be content to know that having 80% of your weight on your front foot is better than having 50% of your weight over each foot at release.

JR wrote:If you want to go into science and proveable repeatable things then the keys are force equals mass times acceleration and kinetic energy equals half the mass time the square of velocity.

No, those aren't the "Keys" as I've defined them a few times. That's just physics. I don't have to know what causes a golf ball to come off the clubface at 1.48 times the speed of the clubhead at the moment of contact, I just have to know that if I did measure that, 1.48 would be pretty darn good for a driver and virtually impossible with, say, a 6-iron.

JR wrote:If you don't go into Einstein and later that showed that Newton couldn't explain everything in astrophysics. And people have much more inventions after Einstein. And i'm way out of my league with physics. More on this later but i'm not derailing this into philosophy of science because i don't consider myself to be competent enough in teaching research methods and it is off topic.

It is, I agree. :)

JR wrote:So if i were to hazard a guess as to what could stand up to studying by scientists as a key i am fairly comfortable in naming moving. Standing still needs a pretty stiff wind to get the disc out of your hand but how do you aim the wind? If you don't create it yourself :-) Anything more is subject to debate i'm afraid so at this point i need to leave things for later. I'm not sure even about your definitions for a key being proper to do the job right.

That's not even really worth a response. "Movement" is too general. Dancing is moving, but it's not going to make you a better disc golfer.

JR wrote:And if they aren't i'm not sure if i'm competent enough or informed enough to lay down the criteria. So if we were thinking in terms of practical abstractions that are close enough to work with with caveats then it would be easier to do what you are attempting. I'm not trying to be a brake. A person contradicting and stopping everything. I'm doing this to get practical results out of naming the keys turned into practice and playing. And so far i think we have some disagreements. More on what differences and why i have differing opinions later. The problem is that commenting on everything takes a book. Really way too long posts and more issues pop up than i can address in a day. Or a few.

I disagree entirely that "it takes a book." I am not sure you really grasp what I'm striving for, and I'll take the blame for that, at not communicating it clearly.

For example, Key #4 (currently) talks about the disc's plane angle. Obviously the best players are very, very good at controlling not only nose angle but wing angle at release. The poorer players are not. You can measure it visually quite easily using high-speed photography and/or video.

If you improve your control over the disc's wing or nose angle, you'll improve at disc golf. There are several things which either help or hurt your ability to control the disc's plane, and they include the grip, your wrist conditions throughout the throw, and so on. Perhaps to improve on your personal Key #4 you need to work on your wrist angles. Or you grip it too far down in your palm, and spend the rest of your throw trying to compensate for that. Or your shoulders work on a poor angle. Or you roll your wrist. Etc.

But the best players time and time again control the disc's plane (wing/nose angle) while the poorer players do not. That's a Key, pure and simple. Improving your (general "your") control over the disc plane will result in improvement.

Not a book: http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introduc ... imple-keys .
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:46 pm

I do agree that angle control is mandatory for everyone so that qualifies. Movement is absolutely a key to throwing because standing still the disc is not going anywhere so it won't be a throw if there is no movement right? People spin the disc too and there are no exceptions to that other than in a putt that tries to eliminate the spin. Which is very counter productive to scoring. So would spinning the disc classify as a key according to you? Off to sleep now more later because i've not really explained why i'm not convinced your criteria are necessarily useful.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby iacas » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:07 pm

JR wrote:Movement

No, be serious. :P You may as well say "breathing" and "a pulse" are Keys because dead people suck at disc golf. C'mon. :?

JR wrote:So would spinning the disc classify as a key according to you?

I believe that's covered in one of the other keys (#5 IIRC)

JR wrote:Off to sleep now more later because i've not really explained why i'm not convinced your criteria are necessarily useful.

If you've arrived at that conclusion, then again I don't think you truly understand what I'm trying to do with these. Again, I'll take the blame for that in failing to make it clear.

I think I'm taking this little project off the table for now, to be continued somewhat in private for a bit. It may help me clarify some things, for myself and others.

Thank you.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:05 am

Again too tired and writing to the point of tendonitis i wasted rereading the entire thread. because many things popped up and i should have typed a response to each point as i reread some issues that haven't been replied to yet. I'll do it a little by little over time sticking to the nuts and bolts. To not let this balloon into a book -possibly.

I have a book about disc golfing and it has less topics that would need to be covered to show you what is what and the book overlaps a lot with standard advice here and misses some of it. There is a lot of knowledge about DG on this site. So a thorough proof for you to get why i'm contrarian about some issues is mandatory or you would have a hard time getting it. I recommend throwing and developing better form so that you know from experience why we suggest what we do.

One mistake i noticed from you was contradicting moving the disc in a straight line not being a key with Dan's rail as proof. Dave Dunipace said that only the angles of the disc at the rip matter and the disc moves to where the thumb nail points at the rip. To get there all and i mean every player i can think of among top players move the disc in a straight line at least from the right pec position forward with a flat shot. So by the criteria you specified earlier: "Keys are absolute requirements and virtually absolute commonalities." that should become key once every developing player can be taught to avoid rounding. Rounders throw like girls and straight line throwers from at least the right pec forward do in the words of Lucia Rijker :"...like a coordinated athlete".

By your criterion "Keys are absolute requirements and virtually absolute commonalities" spin is an absolute requirement absolutely common as is moving, having a pulse too, breathing ain't. I was absolutely serious about movement because you don't yet know from experience that there different skill levels of moving in disc golf and what the differences of a light movement are to the way you throw now do to a throw. And there's the matter of how to move for any distance with disc x vs taking a different movement style or stand still with disc Y making things even more complex but let's not go there yet because i anticipate a long reply as it is and this is too complicated as it is already.

You should probably dance to become better mover and practice to see what light stepping does to throwing. Not every top player steps lightly but all do semi lightly at least. Again developing players tend to be heavier on their feet so you decide if that is common enough to be called a key in your terminology and by your specification. You could define are we talking common to every human that has thrown once or common to proficient players because then light steps would belong to one group of players as a key and not to the noobs by way of not being absolutely common across everyone who has thrown a disc.

I am very wary of allowing people who know nothing about throwing being counted into "absolute commonalities" as a criterion for something to be a key. You may not be as wary and that is ok but then you can't say that this set of keys you arrived to is common unanimous knowledge collated from DGR and DGCR if your data set includes corrupting throwers.

Are you looking for keys to great throws or keys to all throws from a baby to somebody dying before the thrown disc landed? Keys to all throws are not enough to make people throw great shots but keys to great shots will help them along way farther.

Take these comments from someone who knows a little more about a disc golf throw just like you'd need to fill me in on many things about a golf swing. You have form improvements to be made including adding things you haven't exhibited in your videos yet. That is why i think you are trying to run before you're comfy with walking now. And lacking information you are too hasty to define what keys are or are not. Patience grasshopper :-)

You mentioned dropping visual aiming for not being able to measure it and aiming at what and being focused. You aim to the spot height and distance wise from which the disc drops so that it skips to touch the pole. There are headband mounted cameras that record to where the eyes look at and IIRC scientists can tell from the size of the center of the eye if the eye is focused. Perception of vision is way more complicated than that because the accurate part of vision is a couple of degrees wide and the eye takes around 20 samples of the field of view per second and guesses much and overlays the too few clear samples that in a second do not cover the whole field of vision with the best clarity. So a definition of what a focused view is might be shown with proper equipment operated by experts. It is fruitless for us non experts to state what the experts in that area are capable of doing but i have faith in their equipment and expertise. I'm not an expert on measuring to where you look at and if is focused or not but i have seen just such measurement results in a TV program so long time ago that i don't remember the name of it.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby mikes919 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:04 am

I recall the 5SK coming up in conversation over on GolfWRX (i'm a regular lurker over there, occasional poster) and I get what you're trying to do here. The issue I see with disc golf is that the throwing motion among even the best players has a much wider variance than you see in golf. Not only from player to player, but from shot to shot. Whether you're a S&T guy, a TGM guy, whatever, I totally agree that the 5 keys are common among the best players (although there was a fair amount of argument about key #1). And a big part of it is that for full-swing golf shots, the swing is 99% the same no matter what. For disc golf, throwing the equivalent of a cut or fade isn't as simple as making the same throw as a flat shot but adjusting your aim and disc plane. The throws for a big hyzer, anny, or roller might not even resemble the standard flat throw. Throws for distance are totally different from upshots. Then there's forehands, thumbers, and all kinds of trick shots that get played all the time and might break a few keys depending on the situation.

I think everyone here would like to help but it's not as clear-cut as the golf swing because I think there are more variables involved. Not that I'm an expert on the golf swing-- I did a lot of work on my swing this year, took a couple lessons, went from a 21 hdcp to a 15 and still dropping... But to me it is a lot easier to break down the entire golf swing and see where you're going wrong, than to break down the entire disc golf throwing motion. Unless you are specifically trying to emulate someone else's exact throwing style.

Maybe the real keys to the disc golf throw are in the last second, as you're approaching the rip point. And a lot of that is simply about feel and repetition, just like achieving clubface control in ball golf. I guess I would be interested to hear how you go about teaching someone about key #5 in ball golf, because I might be thinking about it the wrong way. You obviously can't just say "control the clubface better". I find that controlling the clubface is mostly about achieving consistency in release, and I'm trying to find that by simple repetition. It's really the only way I've seen it happen in disc golf.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:17 am

Would you say that there are more movements in a disc golf throw than in a golf swing? The added complication of a more complex movement makes things different too because the brain processing power is woefully lacking. iacas mentioned golf hit length. Carlsen measured the time from the plant to the rip to be 0.02 seconds. There are lots of things going on with the wrist movement that takes even less time. And yes you can be conscious of those things. Hyzer, nose angle, pinch timing and strength and gripping direction for each finger pop to mind immediately with active extension of the wrist and the stopping of the wrist and pushing down the wrist and the thumb...

A decently tight grip is needed for long throws so that might qualify as a key for being common because a tight grip allows consistent aiming and enough spin to not flip the discs and have them fading out=different distance and lines between powerhouses and couch potatoes. All pros grip fairly tightly at least in the end of the throw. So does gripping tight at least in one time qualify?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby mikes919 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:34 pm

JR wrote:Would you say that there are more movements in a disc golf throw than in a golf swing? The added complication of a more complex movement makes things different too because the brain processing power is woefully lacking. iacas mentioned golf hit length. Carlsen measured the time from the plant to the rip to be 0.02 seconds. There are lots of things going on with the wrist movement that takes even less time. And yes you can be conscious of those things. Hyzer, nose angle, pinch timing and strength and gripping direction for each finger pop to mind immediately with active extension of the wrist and the stopping of the wrist and pushing down the wrist and the thumb...

A decently tight grip is needed for long throws so that might qualify as a key for being common because a tight grip allows consistent aiming and enough spin to not flip the discs and have them fading out=different distance and lines between powerhouses and couch potatoes. All pros grip fairly tightly at least in the end of the throw. So does gripping tight at least in one time qualify?


I don't know if I would say there are more movements in a disc golf throw, I think the number of actual movements might be similar. The major difference is how much the whole body moves during a disc golf drive. I do feel like there's a lot more that goes into squaring up a clubface then there is to level out a disc throw. But maybe that's just because I know how to throw a disc well, and with a golf club I can't stop blocking shots and hitting push fades.
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