JR wrote:I recommend throwing and developing better form so that you know from experience why we suggest what we do.
While that's undoubtedly one way do it, very accomplished golfers can sometimes make horrible, HORRIBLE instructors because "ability to do something" doesn't translate to "ability to teach something" or even "ability to understand something." Not saying you fall into one of those groups, just that I believe you can know something without necessarily being able to do it (or else PGA Tour players would never have instructors) and vice versa.
JR wrote:One mistake i noticed from you was contradicting moving the disc in a straight line not being a key with Dan's rail as proof.
Not just Dan's rail. I've seen videos of other pros not moving the disc in a straight line (or reasonably straight line). I haven't thrown it out per se, but one guy doing it and not even really being close is a convincing case to remove it.
JR wrote:Dave Dunipace said that only the angles of the disc at the rip matter and the disc moves to where the thumb nail points at the rip. To get there all and i mean every player i can think of among top players move the disc in a straight line at least from the right pec position forward with a flat shot. So by the criteria you specified earlier: "Keys are absolute requirements and virtually absolute commonalities." that should become key once every developing player can be taught to avoid rounding.
No real final decision has been made, but Dan doesn't throw straight from the right pec, does he? He shortens two radii.
Bits about movement (it's too generic to be a Key) cut for the sake of brevity.
JR wrote:I am very wary of allowing people who know nothing about throwing being counted into "absolute commonalities" as a criterion for something to be a key.
Huh? Pro level disc golfers "know nothing about throwing"?
JR wrote:You have form improvements to be made including adding things you haven't exhibited in your videos yet. That is why i think you are trying to run before you're comfy with walking now.
It's not running. It's standing in place and drawing a map. If I can do focus on doing the things the best BH throwers have in common, I will get better. But I have to know what those things are first.
JR wrote:You mentioned dropping visual aiming for not being able to measure it and aiming at what and being focused.
I mentioned dropping it more because I'm not convinced that it's a nearly absolute commonality among the game's greatest. Some let their heads spin around and aren't looking at their targets. Just as in golf some golfers look at a dimple on the golf ball, some look at a spot in front of the golf ball, and some don't even really focus on anything when they're looking downward during their swing.
mikes919 wrote:I recall the 5SK coming up in conversation over on GolfWRX (i'm a regular lurker over there, occasional poster) and I get what you're trying to do here. The issue I see with disc golf is that the throwing motion among even the best players has a much wider variance than you see in golf.
That may be true. I still believe there are bound to be SOME underlying commonalities (Weight Forward, Controlled Disc Plane, and Controlled "Forces" or torques or whatever you want to call it to name three) seem to be there. And obviously to control the plane of the disc (wing and nose), that allows players to have some unique things. Climo's fork grip might mean he has to control nose angle slightly differently than Jenkins, but they both have to control nose angle and wing angle in the end.
mikes919 wrote:(although there was a fair amount of argument about key #1)
Those people don't have the data we have. Or they tried to apply it to drivers, where we allow the most freedom. But that's OT for here...
mikes919 wrote:For disc golf, throwing the equivalent of a cut or fade isn't as simple as making the same throw as a flat shot but adjusting your aim and disc plane. The throws for a big hyzer, anny, or roller might not even resemble the standard flat throw. Throws for distance are totally different from upshots. Then there's forehands, thumbers, and all kinds of trick shots that get played all the time and might break a few keys depending on the situation.
These are BH throw Keys only. Forehands and Thumbers are excluded for now.
And I don't know that I agree that they're quite as different as you think. You need to adjust your aim, clubface, path, and several other things when shaping the ball in golf. Never mind that Jim Furyk's swing doesn't really look all that similar to, well, anyone's but they still have 5 SK in common. And whether you're hitting a 75-yard wedge shot or a 300-yard drive, the 5SK still apply.
I think the three keys I mentioned just above apply to all BH throws in disc golf. Do you disagree with that? Is there ever a throw where you don't have your weight forward? How about a throw where you don't have to control the spin or lateral speed you put into the disc? How about a throw where controlling the nose and wing angles aren't important?
Now, if those are the ONLY three commonalities, then I'm with you and applying "Keys" to disc golf is a waste, because if it's just three things, then it's almost TOO simple or something. Know what I mean?
mikes919 wrote:I think everyone here would like to help but it's not as clear-cut as the golf swing because I think there are more variables involved. Not that I'm an expert on the golf swing-- I did a lot of work on my swing this year, took a couple lessons, went from a 21 hdcp to a 15 and still dropping... But to me it is a lot easier to break down the entire golf swing and see where you're going wrong, than to break down the entire disc golf throwing motion. Unless you are specifically trying to emulate someone else's exact throwing style.
You might be right. But whether it's stupidity or something else, I'll keep going with this until I'm as convinced as you are.
mikes919 wrote:Maybe the real keys to the disc golf throw are in the last second, as you're approaching the rip point. And a lot of that is simply about feel and repetition, just like achieving clubface control in ball golf. I guess I would be interested to hear how you go about teaching someone about key #5 in ball golf, because I might be thinking about it the wrong way. You obviously can't just say "control the clubface better". I find that controlling the clubface is mostly about achieving consistency in release, and I'm trying to find that by simple repetition. It's really the only way I've seen it happen in disc golf.
Clubface control begins with understanding the ball flight laws, includes (for instructors anyway) D-Plane knowledge, and for the student can be as simple as understanding that a good draw is hit with a clubface pointing right of the target at impact and vice versa for a fade (for righties) to making a grip change (because it makes it difficult for them to control the clubface easily) to all manner of things - the rates at which they roll their forearms can be changed by elbow locations, loading patterns, and a whole bunch of other things I won't get into here.
Yes, it's a lot more than saying "control the clubface." It's understanding the components that HELP control the clubface, implementing those so you can do it better, and understanding what makes the ball fly the way it does.
JR wrote:Would you say that there are more movements in a disc golf throw than in a golf swing?
No. There's more motion (because golfers are relatively stationary to their surroundings) but there's not more motion, no. The wrist in the disc golf throw only really flexes and extends. In golf both wrists cock, extend, flex, hinge, and roll. Ulnar deviation, palmar flexion, dorsiflexion, etc. Heck, the trail knee in a golf swing extends, flexes, and extends again, the last two happening from the top of the backswing and up to (and through) impact, a very short window of time. Etc.
JR wrote:The added complication of a more complex movement makes things different too because the brain processing power is woefully lacking.
We're going to have to agree to disagree that disc golf is "added complication." I couldn't disagree more. I think your lack of understanding of the golf swing is hurting your perspective here. I'm being careful not to have the same blind spot for any other sport.
JR wrote:iacas mentioned golf hit length. Carlsen measured the time from the plant to the rip to be 0.02 seconds. There are lots of things going on with the wrist movement that takes even less time.
I'm not sure what your point there is. The golf swing is complex. If you think it's simpler than a disc golf throw, we disagree. Hell, I've seen studies that talk about how jaw alignments affect your golf swing. The amount of anterior or posterior tilt in your pelvis (which changes several times throughout a golf swing, btw). And so on.
JR wrote:So does gripping tight at least in one time qualify?
Possibly. It could be measured. It's a commonality. I'm not sure it's achievable, though. Some disc golfers might never throw 400', so they might never be able to (or need to) grip the disc more firmly than they already do. What if a kid or a 60-year-old guy had perfect form and were as good a disc golfer as they could be given the speed they could physically muster at their maximums? They'd have all the Keys, but they might not be able to grip as strong as a pro. They're still an "expert player" though. So no, I'm inclined to say "not a Key."
In golf, a 60-year-old can have all 5 keys and they'll basically be as good a golfer as they can be. "Smacks the Shit out of the Golf Ball" is not a Key because 120 MPH clubhead speed is not achievable by all.
Something else might be a Key, and it might relate to the *appropriate* grip pressure. What about something like "Proper Release Timing" (those are first generation words, so the title could change drastically). By this I mean that regardless of whether you're Beto or Jenkins or Jussi or the 60-year-old guy who's awesome but just can't throw 400'... they all release at the moment of the disc's greatest speed, at the tangent point or the full hit point. None of them are experiencing slips on every throw.
That's achievable. It's a commonality (I think), and it's visibly measurable (especially overhead).
Just a thought.