My Throwing Motion (iacas)

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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby iacas » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:09 am

JR wrote:The most urgent thing is to get a proper heel pivot each time.

Okay.

JR wrote:It is difficult to gauge the real speed of you x step from the video but to me it didn't seem as rapid as it could be.

Currently I'm only doing the two-step deal because it seems to have helped. I figured I'd work on my form doing a two-step (the x-step and then the right foot step) approach rather than a longer one because it'd be easier to work on my form and then later add some run-up if needed. In your opinion, should I be doing four step run-ups or something? How much distance am I possibly costing myself?

JR wrote:The pre throw routine and the first throw have the left leg too far toward your back AKA if you were on a tee too close to the right side of the tee. In the beginning and at the x step. The left leg is so far to the right that it limits the distance the left leg can push back to front.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean here. Are you just saying that my feet are pointing a little to the left when I release the disc? Obviously my X-Step is going to put the left foot farther "right" on the tee than the right foot, you're saying I should just plant that foot farther to the right side of the tee pad?

JR wrote:At 48 seconds your head looks to what would be the left side of the tee instead of back. That seriously limits how far back you can reach. You'll gain several inches of reach back distance pointing the nose 180 degrees away from the target.

The only way I would gain more distance in my reach back here would be to turn my shoulders more. Should I be trying to turn my shoulders more? Obviously (as in the golf swing) allowing my head to rotate will free up the shoulders to rotate a bit more. Is that what you're suggesting? To allow my shoulders to turn more by letting my head turn a little more?

JR wrote:For the 1 minute part have you seen the two Discraft long distance throwing videos? Marty Peters shows wrist tips. The videos are on their website and their Youtube channel sportdisc. That disc hyzer orientation is good for hyzers not for consistent flat or annied throws. For ultimate power generation moving up from almost vertical hyzer to flat or anny whatever you desire will add to the power of the wrist snap. It might also require more grip power to hold onto the disc.

I haven't seen those videos, and I'm not entirely sure what you mean because if I release on a slight hyzer angle the discs seem to stand up a little, possibly even turn, then fade out at the end. If I release them flat they have the danger of turning too much or even holding that turn to the ground and then catching an edge and rolling. Probably OAT in there, but I try to release everything with the down just a little.

I think you're possibly throwing too much at me, so I'm going to respond to the rest, but I'm just going to work on some footwork first, possibly, since you said that's most important.

JR wrote:1:07 the left leg is almost perfectly straight at the knee so it can't push forward more.

I'm still not convinced of the trail leg actually pushing. It doesn't do it in the golf swing either, even though it might look like it does, and I've seen hundreds of videos where pros are clearly not pushing off with their trail leg because it's in the air or something, and that's before they even get the disc to their pec area.

JR wrote:And the latter part of the throw is more critical so you lost the largest power source. That speed is not top pro level in the back to front movement of the whole body so the stride length should be such that the right ankle, right knee and right arm pit are equidistant from the target. For a run up quicker x step throw the stride has to be longer and the stride you had here would be good because unlike now the momentum you have will get you forward enough at the rip. Now you are about 5-7" weight back from optimum. Which is upright. Think of ice skaters doing a pirouette. Tilt that and even if you could maintain the best rotation speed while you are tilted you shall lose balance at least when the rotation speed goes down. Like moving at 1 MPH with a bike shows. The shoulder angle here relates directly to being weight back and much would improve with getting a shorter stride and weight upright=forward from this position. You don't twist the hips much from here on because the major driver of that motion the left leg is on vacation having spent the power potential that is a bent knee. The remedy is to bend the knees lower on each step.

Bent knees resist rotation in the golf swing, so what you're saying sounds at odds to me. In the golf swing you push your hips forward (almost no contribution from the trail leg), and the rate of your hip rotation really kicks up when you begin straightening the lead knee.

JR wrote:1:16 the left toe might be off enough of the ground that you might not be able to counter the elbow chop counter force. Flat footed. The hips have engaged with the core muscles which is a huge thumbs up! I might be wrong but the shoulders seem to be along for the ride not having turned any farther to the right than the hips.

Because I was trying not to turn the shoulders and to get my arm to get across my chest more! :P Remember?

JR wrote:You are leaning to the left of the imaginary tee from the hips up and that also influences the shoulder angle. So again a more upright posture would help.

More upright, with knees more bent? I'm lost.

I appreciate the help, but this is too much and I don't even necessarily understand all of it. I can't work on six or even three things at once. So I'm going to boil this down, re-read it a few times so perhaps I can understand more of it, and find one thing to work on at a time.

Thank you.

My current plan is to film three videos at regular speed (perhaps throwing a few discs each time) and send them to Blake. I'll post here with updates on that. You've done a lot to help, JR, but I'm not sure this method will work for me. I find myself getting frustrated because it feels like I have a laundry list of things to work on. That's probably me misunderstanding what you're saying, but if I feel I have to work on even three things at once, it's too much and not how I improve best.

Thanks.

I'll try to record myself tomorrow, probably indoors, and get Blake some cash to begin my lessons. :)
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby JR » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:57 am

Still the heel pivot is the top priority with form. The second thing is to not try everything at once you're spot on in there. The third thing is to wait until you add a run up that can be a lot of steps up to 10 although that is rarely needed for anything else than for getting to better shape and wearing you down. When you eventually clean up your form to handle a fast run up you can gain over 10 % distance above the x step.

There is a more important thing to get right than form. You have to have keep at training and learning arming yourself with correct information. You are correct in that you do have form issues to work on and not everything can be corrected immediately. It is the same for everyone. I'm happy to word my explanations differently to allow you to get correct information. Think of this as stepping into the shoes of your golf students and gaining their perspective of confusion and whatnot. Maybe you'll become a better coach. I've heard it said that the best teachers in anything are those that keep on learning for themselves.

You are absolutely correct about needing to turn the shoulders more to reach back farther and it is the head that is in the way of the shoulder movement. That is why the head too needs to turn to face back.

At the moment the left leg is too far right vs where the right leg plants. You made it more difficult to get out of the way of your throw. The real compensation is to move the right leg at least 6 probably 10-12" to the right. The left leg needs to push primarily back to front. That is the core form but there are advanced forms where the back to front direction of movement is not the only one. See my signature.

You are not hitting a ball so you can't bend forward from the hips for a flat throw. Which is the most useful skill because it is the most difficult to master and illustrates form errors and improvement areas the best. So keep the spine upright across all axes. There are discs that released flat won't turn over. It is a matter of finding a good match for your power and form.

A disc golf throw arm movement goes horizontal rather than almost vertically as it does in golf so not all things carry over. There are two ways of countering the back force of the elbow chop. One is the Feldy kick and the other is to keep the rear leg on the ground. Too may are in between not achieving the goal of countering the elbow chop back force. At the moment you do neither version to the max. Think of a weight shift. Which is more powerful way using only momentum of the steps with straight knees or using the momentum and adding to that the back to front push of the left leg from a bent knee to a straight knee? Rotation to the right is faster if the left leg pushes forward and the right leg pushes back. Try it without throwing to see the difference. With a left leg on the ground at the hit you want the right knee to be fairly straight after pushing back but not totally straight and the left knee should be even straighter after coming from a deep push. Again Jussi Meresmaa shows well how much power and control you get from a steeply bent left knee pushed to straight. It is a killer tip for putting power increase, accuracy and consistency too. Another great knee benders is Jalle Stoor and Miko Fyhr bends almost as much. You can see both of those guys in our videos and they too are or have been over 1000 rated. A friend of Jalle Nils Iso-Markku plays in the final round of Siltamäki Open 2012 and bends almost as far down as Jalle for great results shooting -11 for 18 holes in rain and wind one off the course record made without the rain. The video is on lcgm8 channel. Note that properly using the knees in unison does not change the head height so your key is not compromised :-)

The short version is that in disc golf bent knees help the rotation, safeguard against injuries, add force to weight shift and body rotation and makes you a class or two better putter. So in knees bending or not golf and disc golf are total opposites.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby iacas » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:32 pm

JR wrote:Still the heel pivot is the top priority with form. The second thing is to not try everything at once you're spot on in there. The third thing is to wait until you add a run up that can be a lot of steps up to 10 although that is rarely needed for anything else than for getting to better shape and wearing you down. When you eventually clean up your form to handle a fast run up you can gain over 10 % distance above the x step.

Okay, so for now perhaps I'll work on that and will not worry about running up.

I'm not a fan of tooting our horns, but we're great golf instructors in large part because we have great information AND we're great communicators with our students. We're good at quickly feeling out their level of understanding and catering to it. So I agree with you that communication is important. Part of what slightly confuses me about some of the things you write is simply because I have an odd mixture of pretty good biomechanical knowledge, good physics and science knowledge, but little in the way of "disc golf specific" knowledge like where my hips should be at some point in the throw, or what angle my shoulders should be at during the hit (or where the hit would be if I didn't stink), etc.

But no worries. I'm getting there (in my understanding). :) Slowly but surely.

JR wrote:At the moment the left leg is too far right vs where the right leg plants. You made it more difficult to get out of the way of your throw. The real compensation is to move the right leg at least 6 probably 10-12" to the right. The left leg needs to push primarily back to front. That is the core form but there are advanced forms where the back to front direction of movement is not the only one. See my signature.

I've seen your signature, yes. I continue to disagree that the left leg pushes quite as much as you like to prescribe.

JR wrote:You are not hitting a ball so you can't bend forward from the hips for a flat throw. Which is the most useful skill because it is the most difficult to master and illustrates form errors and improvement areas the best. So keep the spine upright across all axes. There are discs that released flat won't turn over. It is a matter of finding a good match for your power and form.

I don't know about that. A quick perusal of pros throwing fairly flat (not big hyzers or anhyzers) shows the spine is not vertical. They're leaning back during reach-back, forward during the pull, and then towards the target in the early part of the follow-through (and still over their toes a bit too). A vertical spine would require the hips to remain directly beneath the chest at all times. I don't see that happening.

JR wrote:A disc golf throw arm movement goes horizontal rather than almost vertically as it does in golf so not all things carry over.

Can you show me videos of pros with horizontal arm angles and shoulder tilts? I believe we can put the disc on a flat plane, given the geometry of our shoulders and elbows and wrists, while still in slight forward flexion.

JR wrote:There are two ways of countering the back force of the elbow chop.

What back force? Which direction is "back"? I'm a beginner. I understand the physics, and a good bit of the biomechanics, but I don't necessarily get some of the words you're using in their disc-golf-throwing-specific meaning. You'll remember I had asked you to clarify what you meant by "right" side of the tee earlier - I now know when you say "right" or "left" you mean as you stand at the back of the tee looking down the hole. :)

JR wrote:One is the Feldy kick and the other is to keep the rear leg on the ground. Too may are in between not achieving the goal of countering the elbow chop back force. At the moment you do neither version to the max. Think of a weight shift. Which is more powerful way using only momentum of the steps with straight knees or using the momentum and adding to that the back to front push of the left leg from a bent knee to a straight knee?

Again, in golf people think the rear leg helps you push forward, but studies have been done and the leg contributes almost nothing. I've not seen too many videos of pros who appear to be pushing off with their back leg much at all. I don't necessarily buy right now that the left leg contributes much to push forward, and what little it contributes is primarily responsible for helping push the left hip around. I think this portion HAS some overlap with the golf swing as they're both weight-shift-and-rotation dominated in this phase of the motion. They've attached electrodes. The back leg doesn't do much in the golf swing despite a sizeable pressure shift. In fact, if the trail leg pushed in the golf swing, we wouldn't see pressures of only 5-10% under the right foot at impact. Pushing would spike the pressure readings under that foot.

JR wrote:Rotation to the right is faster if the left leg pushes forward and the right leg pushes back. Try it without throwing to see the difference. With a left leg on the ground at the hit you want the right knee to be fairly straight after pushing back but not totally straight and the left knee should be even straighter after coming from a deep push.

I can see that, and straightening both knees also helps my right foot get onto its heel, but I'm not certain how I can do this and have my right knee, ankle, and armpit in a vertical line.

These guys don't have those parts in a line (nor are all of their back legs straight):
http://f.cl.ly/items/3d3W0d1w0G2o3g3i2k ... Export.jpg
http://f.cl.ly/items/3u2k0V0M1P3E041g2u ... rt%202.jpg

JR wrote:Again Jussi Meresmaa shows well how much power and control you get from a steeply bent left knee pushed to straight. It is a killer tip for putting power increase, accuracy and consistency too.

I am not convinced. That's not to say I can't be - that's why I'm still asking. :D Do you have a good video of Jussi? I went to the channel and searched "Finnish Open 2010" and you said there were two videos and I didn't have the time earlier to figure out which of the 24 with those words in the title he was in. :)

JR wrote:Another great knee benders is Jalle Stoor and Miko Fyhr bends almost as much. You can see both of those guys in our videos and they too are or have been over 1000 rated. A friend of Jalle Nils Iso-Markku plays in the final round of Siltamäki Open 2012 and bends almost as far down as Jalle for great results shooting -11 for 18 holes in rain and wind one off the course record made without the rain. The video is on lcgm8 channel. Note that properly using the knees in unison does not change the head height so your key is not compromised :-)

You told me some pros change their body levels, so I threw that Key out. :D

JR wrote:The short version is that in disc golf bent knees help the rotation

Is this a European style of throw?

I ask because very few of the U.S. guys seem to be pushing off (either pushing weight forward OR to spin their hips) because their knees stay bent, their left foot has barely the toe on the ground or is literally in the air, etc.

JR wrote:safeguard against injuries, add force to weight shift and body rotation and makes you a class or two better putter. So in knees bending or not golf and disc golf are total opposites.

I'm not sure you understand knee bending in golf enough to stay something like that. Golfers bend and straighten their knees for power (speed) and rotation. It's parametric acceleration. Some long drivers literally jump in the air because they're using their legs so much.

Here's an extreme example, but a good example all the same:
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby iacas » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:48 pm

One specific question, JR. You want both knees flexed at some point, the right ankle, knee, and armpit to line up, and my spine to remain vertical from down the line and face-on, with the right foot pivoting around the heel in the follow-through.

Right? How is all of that even possible?

Perhaps you can clarify each of those points.

At what point are the right and left knees flexed? When are they straight?
At what point is your spine "vertical" and from which view point?
At which point should your right ankle, knee, and armpit line up vertically?

I agree about rotating on the heel so I won't ask at what point that happens. :)
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby mikes919 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:08 pm

From looking at your video I actually think most of your posture seems okay. Look at a slo-mo video of Ken Climo, he has the most effortless throw there is and he doesn't have vertical posture from a side view or any of those other positions completely in line. The main thing is that your stance is way too wide and you're not light enough on your feet to effectively get your weight forward, and you never really do it. You need to really get the feel for getting your weight forward, you should be moving forward hard enough that you step forward off the teepad after you throw.

There's a golf drill that I've done lots of times- hitting balls with a 1/2 swing and all of your weight forward, really getting the feel for how your weight should be at impact and getting your hands forward. You can do a similar drill in disc golf, which is basically to practice 100' approach shots. Stand with your feet in line with the target, weight equally distributed. Rock forward and throw a smooth, line-drive throw to the basket. You should feel all your weight forward on your front foot, it's okay if your back foot comes off the ground completely (it probably should). You want to emulate this same feeling on your full-power shots.

You should be very light on your feet going into the throw, otherwise you will stay stuck way behind your lead foot even if it's supporting all of your weight. That's part of the reason why it's so important to bend your legs, if you leave them straight then you're basically pinning your weight where it is when you plant your lead foot and not allowing your body to continue transferring weight forward. The end result is an arm-driven throw which won't ever get real distance.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby seabas22 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:15 pm

Holy squat and thrust on Lisa Longball! It's interesting how early she squats in the backswing, and raises the head in the downswing although she probably has a much higher trajectory than most. Even Bubba Watson who jumps, doesn't raise the head in the downswing and doesn't really get into full squat until the downswing. And Jamie Sadlowski keeps his head down as well and doesn't seem to have as much squat as either of them. Also looks like she is weightless at impact with both feet in the air and I think Bubba and Jamie are also weightless at impact. I think the major differences from disc golf and ball golf are the trajectory and the final lever length/timing.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby iacas » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:54 pm

mikes919 wrote:From looking at your video I actually think most of your posture seems okay. Look at a slo-mo video of Ken Climo, he has the most effortless throw there is and he doesn't have vertical posture from a side view or any of those other positions completely in line. The main thing is that your stance is way too wide and you're not light enough on your feet to effectively get your weight forward, and you never really do it. You need to really get the feel for getting your weight forward, you should be moving forward hard enough that you step forward off the teepad after you throw.

Thank you. I'll try to quantify staying lighter on my feet in some way here eventually. :)

mikes919 wrote:There's a golf drill that I've done lots of times- hitting balls with a 1/2 swing and all of your weight forward, really getting the feel for how your weight should be at impact and getting your hands forward. You can do a similar drill in disc golf, which is basically to practice 100' approach shots. Stand with your feet in line with the target, weight equally distributed. Rock forward and throw a smooth, line-drive throw to the basket. You should feel all your weight forward on your front foot, it's okay if your back foot comes off the ground completely (it probably should). You want to emulate this same feeling on your full-power shots.

That sounds like a good drill. I'll do that.

This is one of my more popular YouTube videos :D :


mikes919 wrote:You should be very light on your feet going into the throw, otherwise you will stay stuck way behind your lead foot even if it's supporting all of your weight. That's part of the reason why it's so important to bend your legs, if you leave them straight then you're basically pinning your weight where it is when you plant your lead foot and not allowing your body to continue transferring weight forward. The end result is an arm-driven throw which won't ever get real distance.

Thanks. That helps quantify it. I appreciate it. I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture of my footwork now.

seabas22 wrote:Holy squat and thrust on Lisa Longball! It's interesting how early she squats in the backswing, and raises the head in the downswing although she probably has a much higher trajectory than most. Even Bubba Watson who jumps, doesn't raise the head in the downswing and doesn't really get into full squat until the downswing. And Jamie Sadlowski keeps his head down as well and doesn't seem to have as much squat as either of them. Also looks like she is weightless at impact with both feet in the air and I think Bubba and Jamie are also weightless at impact. I think the major differences from disc golf and ball golf are the trajectory and the final lever length/timing.

To be clear, you don't have to actually leave the ground to use the ground to generate parametric acceleration. Sam Snead squatted a little, and at a point in the downswing near to where the shaft is parallel almost all pro golfers will all extend their knees, hips, and begin extending their backs to help aid the final "snap" of the club down towards the golf ball.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby JR » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:26 am

I interpreted your description of golf knee bend totally wrong so disc golf and golf knee usage are not total opposites. The pictures you posted very very illustrative because the guys aren't yet at the hit. You need to pivot around the right heel/right knee/right arm pit axis at the hit. That means that the heel pivot starts a little earlier but you want to concentrate a maximum acceleration at the hit. So the radius of your weight rotating around the center of the rotation needs to be the tightest possible for the fastest rotation during the hit. When you are at ankle/knee/arm pit in a vertical line. If you tilt the hips and the upper torso away from perfectly upright you shifted weight away from the heel pivot axis so physics say that the rotation with the same force has to be slower.

Another physics bit from Sir Isaac Newton. For every force there is an equally strong and opposite force. So when you chop the elbow forward the body turns back and leftfrom that force because the elbow moves forward and right. You can test this by standing on the right leg and having a loose core and making the arm swing hard. The harder you throw the more your torso moves to the left.

You read me wrong i am wary of counting the throws of noobs into absolute commonalities as a criterion for any part of form to becoming or being excluded from being a key. I advocate only using competent or even top pro players as yard sticks for finding out the keys.

I would like to see a slo mo top down video of Dan. Such a video has not been released and i need to look more closely at some vids of Dan for straightness of disc movement from the right pec forward. I suggest you do the same at channel mfranssila and the slo mo bits of Tali Opens 2009-2011. My seat of the pants feel is that most if not each top pros move the disc in a straight line from the right pec to the rip. Minus possible a small curve that comes from the elbow extending out of sync timing wise with the rest of the body movements.

Avery Jenkins likes to finish with the left toe on the ground these days i think he has noticed the left leg being too far airborne in the dual angle slow motion video. See seven drives with Avery Jenkins for 2011 footage. Climo is dynamic in his weight shift back to front and many people mistake his follow through lunge and bending forward at the hip to being that way at the rip. Check out channel mfranssila for slo mo stuff of many players. The flight is not shown so climbing throws may corrupt the results.

You can measure the speed you are moving forward and the pressure plates and the rotation speed of a non left leg push and a left leg push. Carlsen didn't measure one way vs others and didn't include under hips stuff for his thesis but the measurements should not be hard for you to do. You don't have to believe me look at the slo mo vids of those that throw this way and make a measurement of yourself. And for a quick reality check do a left leg long jump and tell me it can't add power and distance to a throw. Without bending the knee and extending it you can't go that far vs bending way down and extending the knee straight from there. BTW. i'd like to know how far you jumped with each version because i've never heard the results from a disc golfer.

I agree with the logic of Dunipace in that it is not as important what you do before the rip as long as the angles are correct there. The same logic applies to the heel pivot and upright posture at the hit. You lose the most there if your posture is crooked and not as much before or after the hit with after being less important as long as you compensate with the arm with on plane follow through. That doesn't mean that you cannot polish the efficiency of the throw posture wise before the hit. You are correct about leaning back at the reach back but that is mostly or fully depending on the person coming from the legs leading the body and the hind leg bending the knee. I've seen many straight spine reach backs where the knees do all the leaning back. The Climo way of bending the hips forward at the follow through is not the only form there is because you can lean forward with a straight spine if you leave the right knee steeply bent and straighten the left knee. Leaning forward at the waist is great for forcing the nose down limiting the ape height which is good for throwing under the branches and avoiding fading out of the fairway. Climo is smart and staying on the fairway is mandatory to becoming a 12x world champ. Don't mistake flight manipulation for optimum power generation both have their uses.

You need to look for spine straightness in perfectly flat throws. You wrote fairly flat. There are two ways of throwing hyzers and annies. One is specified in my signature and the other is tilting the spine. I already told about the efficiency disparity between these styles. A vertical spine at the hit or actually if you measure inches that is the ideal for only one speed of throwing. Because the plant step stride length varies with running speed but for an x step that is a spot on description that the spine is vertical and you pivot around the heel/knee/arm pit. Add a run up and the speed and stride length increases so that you are still spine straight up and the ankle is ahead of the knee which is ahead of the arm pit. There a small leaning forward at the hips and i mean just enough to get the center of the body weight closest to the heel pivot axis of rotation. Axis of rotation is the key term along with getting as much mass there so if we nit pick the knee bend angles need to change with the stride length and the speed. I restate that a pirouette at max speed does not ever start with the arms out. The weight must be as close to the rotation axis as possible and the axis is the spine in a pirouette.

Videos of flat shots are all over the place look for them yourself it is common so looking at other stuff in the videos i've already mentioned should reveal those. From memory Avery might have just that. And do some homework and look for Jussi yourself. Final and one other round contain his throws in the FO2010.

Another great drill for seeing what the knee bend does is to putt. Make your regular full power putt with a stagger stance and measure how far it went. Try different rear leg bending angles with a stagger stance down to sitting back as far as you can so way over 100 degree knee bend angle at the left knee and measure the results. I would wonder how strong of a squat lifter you are if your maximum squat would produce the longest putt. I would also wonder if squatting down to around 80 degrees wouldnät outfly straight knees putt by a large margin. In an interview FPO world champ Sarah Hokom said to lift weights with a squat to get as long a stride as she does in an FH drive. I can only assume that she means she can get more power from pushing so hard with the rear leg.I interpreted your description of golf knee bend totally wrong so disc golf and golf knee usage are not total opposites. The pictures you posted very very illustrative because the guys aren't yet at the hit. You need to pivot around the right heel/right knee/right arm pit axis at the hit. That means that the heel pivot starts a little earlier but you want to concentrate a maximum acceleration at the hit. So the radius of your weight rotating around the center of the rotation needs to be the tightest possible for the fastest rotation during the hit. When you are at ankle/knee/arm pit in a vertical line. If you tilt the hips and the upper torso away from perfectly upright you shifted weight away from the heel pivot axis so physics say that the rotation with the same force has to be slower.

Another physics bit from Sir Isaac Newton. For every force there is an equally strong and opposite force. So when you chop the elbow forward the body turns back and leftfrom that force because the elbow moves forward and right. You can test this by standing on the right leg and having a loose core and making the arm swing hard. The harder you throw the more your torso moves to the left.

You read me wrong i am wary of counting the throws of noobs into absolute commonalities as a criterion for any part of form to becoming or being excluded from being a key. I advocate only using competent or even top pro players as yard sticks for finding out the keys.

I would like to see a slo mo top down video of Dan. Such a video has not been released and i need to look more closely at some vids of Dan for straightness of disc movement from the right pec forward. I suggest you do the same at channel mfranssila and the slo mo bits of Tali Opens 2009-2011. My seat of the pants feel is that most if not each top pros move the disc in a straight line from the right pec to the rip. Minus possible a small curve that comes from the elbow extending out of sync timing wise with the rest of the body movements.

Avery Jenkins likes to finish with the left toe on the ground these days i think he has noticed the left leg being too far airborne in the dual angle slow motion video. See seven drives with Avery Jenkins for 2011 footage. Climo is dynamic in his weight shift back to front and many people mistake his follow through lunge and bending forward at the hip to being that way at the rip. Check out channel mfranssila for slo mo stuff of many players. The flight is not shown so climbing throws may corrupt the results.

You can measure the speed you are moving forward and the pressure plates and the rotation speed of a non left leg push and a left leg push. Carlsen didn't measure one way vs others and didn't include under hips stuff for his thesis but the measurements should not be hard for you to do. You don't have to believe me look at the slo mo vids of those that throw this way and make a measurement of yourself. And for a quick reality check do a left leg long jump and tell me it can't add power and distance to a throw. Without bending the knee and extending it you can't go that far vs bending way down and extending the knee straight from there. BTW. i'd like to know how far you jumped with each version because i've never heard the results from a disc golfer.

I agree with the logic of Dunipace in that it is not as important what you do before the rip as long as the angles are correct there. The same logic applies to the heel pivot and upright posture at the hit. You lose the most there if your posture is crooked and not as much before or after the hit with after being less important as long as you compensate with the arm with on plane follow through. That doesn't mean that you cannot polish the efficiency of the throw posture wise before the hit. You are correct about leaning back at the reach back but that is mostly or fully depending on the person coming from the legs leading the body and the hind leg bending the knee. I've seen many straight spine reach backs where the knees do all the leaning back. The Climo way of bending the hips forward at the follow through is not the only form there is because you can lean forward with a straight spine if you leave the right knee steeply bent and straighten the left knee. Leaning forward at the waist is great for forcing the nose down limiting the ape height which is good for throwing under the branches and avoiding fading out of the fairway. Climo is smart and staying on the fairway is mandatory to becoming a 12x world champ. Don't mistake flight manipulation for optimum power generation both have their uses.

You need to look for spine straightness in perfectly flat throws. You wrote fairly flat. There are two ways of throwing hyzers and annies. One is specified in my signature and the other is tilting the spine. I already told about the efficiency disparity between these styles. A vertical spine at the hit or actually if you measure inches that is the ideal for only one speed of throwing. Because the plant step stride length varies with running speed but for an x step that is a spot on description that the spine is vertical and you pivot around the heel/knee/arm pit. Add a run up and the speed and stride length increases so that you are still spine straight up and the ankle is ahead of the knee which is ahead of the arm pit. There a small leaning forward at the hips and i mean just enough to get the center of the body weight closest to the heel pivot axis of rotation. Axis of rotation is the key term along with getting as much mass there so if we nit pick the knee bend angles need to change with the stride length and the speed. I restate that a pirouette at max speed does not ever start with the arms out. The weight must be as close to the rotation axis as possible and the axis is the spine in a pirouette.

Videos of flat shots are all over the place look for them yourself it is common so looking at other stuff in the videos i've already mentioned should reveal those. From memory Avery might have just that. And do some homework and look for Jussi yourself. Final and one other round contain his throws in the FO2010.

Another great drill for seeing what the knee bend does is to putt. Make your regular full power putt with a stagger stance and measure how far it went. Try different rear leg bending angles with a stagger stance down to sitting back as far as you can so way over 100 degree knee bend angle at the left knee and measure the results. I would wonder how strong of a squat lifter you are if your maximum squat would produce the longest putt. I would also wonder if squatting down to around 80 degrees wouldn't out fly straight knees putt by a large margin. In an interview at Disc Golf Talk Radio FPO world champ Sarah Hokom said to lift weights with a squat to get as long a stride as she does in an FH drive. I can only assume that she means she can get more power from pushing so hard with the rear leg.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby JR » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:35 am

iacas wrote:One specific question, JR. You want both knees flexed at some point, the right ankle, knee, and armpit to line up, and my spine to remain vertical from down the line and face-on, with the right foot pivoting around the heel in the follow-through.

Right? How is all of that even possible?

Perhaps you can clarify each of those points.

At what point are the right and left knees flexed? When are they straight?
At what point is your spine "vertical" and from which view point?
At which point should your right ankle, knee, and armpit line up vertically?

I agree about rotating on the heel so I won't ask at what point that happens. :)


It is easiest to learn this by doing and mimicking. So the rocking back and forth drill with at least 30 preferably 45 degrees bent knees moving as far back as you can and then forward as far as you can without tripping over should teach you all of this in seconds. I also suggest looking at the videos for what the players i mentioned earlier.

The spine should be vertical at the hit for maximum power generation relative to the earth. When you throw like i describe in my signature you are always throwing the arm plane 90 degrees to the torso (with a straight spine) rotating on the center of the axis that is the heel pivoting. Try to find a more powerful arm movement than a 90 degree plane relative to the torso and if you do please teach me that. Aren't muscles most powerful in the center of their movement range? Isn't a 90 degree arm swing vs the torso the center of the movement range for the arm?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby JR » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:55 am

It is debatable is the key of keeping the head at the same height should be removed from the keys list because of the Brinster hop. I am not sure if a lack of keeping the head at constant height ruins the chances of getting a great shot because doing that doesn't add much to a throw and not doing it doesn't always ruin the throw either. You can get an OAT free throw long even if you bob up and down all you like as long as the arm is not compromised at the hit and the follow trough. So i question the use of not changing the head height in a throw from results point of view. what is the point of drilling something that does not always improve the throw? But i'm an utilitarian. i can see the academic interest needs and i'm fine with that.

The reason i would not dismiss the key of not moving up and down is that if you look at Brinster and Moser they maintain the same angles as everybody else minus the natural up to down motion shock absorber effect. So i would argue that in all the ways that matter those two guys and me for years were otherwise on par with everyone moving with regular steps maintaining constant height. Except we load the legs muscles more plyometrically from the dropping and landing so we get added power from gravity and hopping up converted back to a faster push forward.

Ooh maybe a real world non DG example from work might help you to understand the need and utility of pushing forward with the left leg in disc golf. In a summer job when i was young i was moving over 1500 kilos of stuff with a manually powered fork lifter from an elevator that was about 3" below the floor to which i needed to move the stuff. I didn't have enough power to push the fork lifter above that step. So i hopped up and upon landing i put my left leg on the back wall of the elevator and i managed to push the stuff over that step. Now tell me pushing forward does not create power :-D It is time to stop arguing against me on that count and proving it to yourself by doing it in real word. Happy drills. And no arguing back is allowed until you done things right because from a feel and the distance of a disc flight it is a no brainer to see the results. Go measure young man :-D
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby JR » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:37 am

For the way Miko Fyhr and also the best Finn career wise Timo Pursio use their knees in Tali Open 2012 finals here is the final part of the finals. I don't link our HD material here to be made smaller by phpBB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg9MsZ7_kF8

Timo usually throws like my signature describes. Before he took a hiatus from DG he was sponsored by Millennium. IIRC he was rated 1026 in 2009 which for the time was insanely high. This is his comeback tournament.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby iacas » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:07 pm

I appreciate the help you've offered and the time you've taken, but as you know this thread is about my particular motion. It's not the Keys thread, and little of the stuff you typed seems directly relevant to my throwing motion and the top priorities, so I'm going to respond to the parts that seem relevant.

I will say though that I've got a fairly good understanding of physics and the problem with trying to apply simple Newtonian laws to bodies is that our bodies are not closed systems, and energy and forces can be applied from within.

JR wrote:I would like to see a slo mo top down video of Dan.

I would to. It's possible Blake got his motion wrong. :) Not specific to my throw, but a short comment.

JR wrote:And do some homework and look for Jussi yourself. Final and one other round contain his throws in the FO2010.

I did go and look. I just didn't have the time to look through 24 videos for the two with him in them, and thought you might know which they were off the top of your head.

To get back to the bit about the knee/ankle/armpit and the vertical spine, you've said two things are true:
1) the knee, ankle, and armpit are in a vertical line (that's equidistant from the target)
2) the knees go from flexed to straight.
3) your spine is vertical to the ground

For those to both be true, you'd have a stick figure that looks like this (right upper, lower leg and spine shown):

Image

In A the spine isn't vertical, and in B everything is vertical but the disc golfer here doesn't have his knees bent and doesn't appear to resemble many disc golfers that I've seen, plus he's expended energy in straightening not only his knee but his hips too.

It's a core tenet of our golf instruction that turning your shoulders in a circle (by keeping their center of rotation relatively still) is more efficient than turning them around a rotational center that's moving up and down or left and right, so I'm with you on that.

JR wrote:The spine should be vertical at the hit for maximum power generation relative to the earth. When you throw like i describe in my signature you are always throwing the arm plane 90 degrees to the torso (with a straight spine) rotating on the center of the axis that is the heel pivoting.

If you're vertical to the earth, you're straight up and down from any angle, whether it's face-on or down-the-line. So when are you in position A? When are you in position B? In A the spine is not vertical to the earth (and if the arm and disc are horizontal, it's not perpendicular to them either).

I cannot envision a situation where the knee is bent, the ankle, knee, and armpit are in a line, and the spine is vertical. Can you?

And if the knees are bent, and you move from A to B during the throwing motion, how do you not stop the head from rising as much as it should from the loss of flex in the right knee and the hip joint?

Perhaps I'm brain farting here, or I'm supplying a constraint that doesn't exist, but that's why I asked those questions given your truths: the ankle/knee/armpit, the knee changing flex, and the spine vertical to the ground.

Just flat throws here. No anhyzer or hyzer stuff.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby seabas22 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:43 pm

Overhead of Beto at 2min:
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby JR » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:31 pm

I have not read the latest reply from you in the other thread so this answers only your last post in this thread. I want to make extra sure that we are talking of the same thing with the images. I have trouble to be exactly certain about the perspective you meant in those pictures. If the view is from the rear of the tee toward the front A is a golf left handed player posture and if the view is from the right side of the tee to the left it is a thrower bending forward at the hips like Climo in his follow through moving from the right to the left in the picture. I interpret the pictures to viewed from the left side of the tee at a player who is moving from right to left. Did i interpret correctly?

Bradley Walker was the first guy here to talk of the intersecting line from the heel through the knee to the arm pit around which axis you pivot. It is more of a conceptual image illustrating the axis around which the pivot rotates the body than a hard law for every throw. So it is good to clarify it more.

When you are talking of absolutes of having the heel,knee and the arm pit exactly at the same distance from the target you are moving fairly slowly so it is a no run up slow control x step or the stride length would be out of sync with the maximum left leg weight shift forward power+the momentum that you have from the x steps. There is only one possibility when those body parts are equidistant from the target and that is when the plant step stride length is from the right leg alone the same as that of your shoulder width. Or to be more precise application wise the spine to right should distance is the same as the spine to ankle distance when looking down from directly above the thrower. Note that with bending the knees the spine to left ankle distance changes throughout the throw as you are shifting the weight forward even if you were not pushing actively with that leg. The push of the left leg adds to the spine to ankle distance even more. Look at videos of Sarah Hokom making the most visible rear leg push in her FH for example here:


We should be generate forces from within especially the left leg because the legs are the largest power source in a throw according to some. I'm not getting too much D from arms as strings no hip and shoulder turns though so i am wary about the scientific veracity of that quote. Out of my 400'+ max D how do we divide the power to each part of the body? Susan? Hummel did some of that stuff at least in theoretical modeling but i have been lazy and have not read through all of her thesis yet. I can throw 200' or a little more standing perfectly still with moving only the arm so IMO the statements of force from different body parts and the contribution to a real throw need aerodynamics of a thrown disc to be examined too to say how many feet of a throw come from which source and what the relation of generated force comes from where. I do not have that kind of data.

In your list number 2 might explain why you are not convinced about the need to push with the left leg. You wrote: "the knees go from flexed to straight". No they don't. At least not necessarily and if they do it is not always worth it. The right knee should be bent according to the desired apex height of the disc with more bending angle for a lower apex. So with flight manipulation dropping the nose of the disc it is mandatory that the arm pit moves forward of the heel and the ankle at the rip. For a non manipulated throws the left knee should be straight and the right knee bent. Not both straight necessarily. Some people try to maximize the body rotation by pushing to the max with the right leg pushing back so that they do get both knees straight at the rip. I have no measurement data of this but as anecdotal evidence i can tell that you that you do not want to repeat my failure of hitting a rock in the pivot so that the right foot and ankle are stopped prematurely and the right knee is straight. That led to twisting of the knee with my momentum plus much of body weight resulting in pain. I am limber and was lucky to not get injured. I wasn't moving fast on that natural tee for obvious reasons.

An even more ambiguous anecdote: I am more accurate and consistent throwing with a slightly bent right and for under max power left too knee because of balance and more tactile balance control. The ground is not always flat so a little shock absorber movement range is a good real life insurance against any kind of angle changing body part movement range limits that hit you when an uneven ground causes unexpected tripping, sliding etc. Feldy calls having bent knees "athletic position" in his clinics and there are vids of those about so look for those. One episode before the video above had more info from him and although i can't recall for sure i think Dave went over bent knees stuff and how to find the natural athletic position for yourself by jumping up turning 90 degrees left in the air in one of the vids. The stance you're at landing is your natural athletic position according to him. I'm even more strongly balanced with a wider stance than that YMMV. A good stance is one that doesn't need a lot of power to maintain even when someone pushes you. A poorly balances straight knee stance doesn't need much power at all to push you over. You should definitely try this drill too it is very illuminating. It applies to putting very much too because you gain so much distance that no matter how you punch with the arm you can't compensate for it and the arm overuse kills accuracy and consistency.

So now that you have seen people throwing with bent knees straightening the left one toward the end what does it look like? Have you imitated the similar motion in a throw and what have the accuracy and consistency changes been if there have been any? I've imitated Jussi and have adopted his style for stand stills most of the time. For the rest if the distances are short i spare my strength and stay more upright with slightly bent knees. For lower powered throws i don't always complete a full distance follow through step because i'm not reaching flexibility limits that could change angles.

For number 3 it is easy to see how thee spine can be vertical while the knees bend a lot in drives or watching fencers. Having an upright spine is child's play. Not much is simpler because you are accustomed standing upright and have that for a long time. Easier than riding a bike. As Nike says just do it :-D

You don't need to get to position A ever if you don't want to even though Climo does. You can easily have the spine upright and pivot and follow through step with the left leg should mirror the plant step in distance and landing position according to former distance world record holder Christian Sandström. The idea behind that is to stay in balance thus control not compromising power generation, timing and the angles at which the disc flies according to my experience and interpretation of what he meant. You can go to the position in A in the follow through trying to throw under tree limbs or steep downhill quite successfully and you can need even more right knee bending than that.

If you stand still and throw with only rotate the hips and the shoulders and whip with the arm you can throw to past 200' in the stance that picture B shows. That is far from optimal. If you draw the left leg too and not just the right to B having it be straight at the knee extending toward the right lower corner of the image that is a totally achievable stance at the rip at low speed. At high speed it would lock up the right hip joint not moving freely tripping you forward and limiting rotation to the right almost always resulting in missing to the left. A high speed version would be B with the right leg moving forward beyond the arm pit toward the left lower corner of the image. Note that it is still possible to have the ankle and the heel at the same distance from the target if you want to but then it is easier to lean more weight forward than with the heel closer to the target than the knee. Because each of those versions is beneficial in different situations i have no preference for any.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: My Throwing Motion (iacas)

Postby iacas » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:32 pm

JR wrote:It is more of a conceptual image

Okay. So that changes things dramatically. Thanks.

JR wrote:Feldy calls having bent knees "athletic position" in his clinics and there are vids of those about so look for those.

I've seen several. They're not as helpful as you'd hope, but then again, player clinics are rarely very helpful. Feel ain't real, and they spend too much time saying "just practice" and "do what feels comfortable."

JR wrote:One episode before the video above had more info from him and although i can't recall for sure i think Dave went over bent knees stuff and how to find the natural athletic position for yourself by jumping up turning 90 degrees left in the air in one of the vids. The stance you're at landing is your natural athletic position according to him.

He does that in his push putting 40 minute video on Vimeo. I downloaded it since it seems to "move" quite frequently.

JR wrote:For number 3 it is easy to see how thee spine can be vertical while the knees bend a lot in drives or watching fencers. Having an upright spine is child's play. Not much is simpler because you are accustomed standing upright and have that for a long time. Easier than riding a bike.

The point I was making was that you can't have a bent knee, the armpit/knee/ankle in a vertical line, and a vertical spine. But now that I know that's more of a "conceptual" thing it renders this whole thing nearly moot.

My video from today, with absolutely no thoughts whatsoever going on, so I could make as "natural" a motion as possible.

Sent to Blake for analysis. I'll probably post some updates of me doing some drills and things here when he's had a chance to look and get back to me. He specified regular speed and these camera views. Regression for sure, but again, just trying to show where I'm at naturally right now, with no thoughts or attempts to do anything.

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