The Gospel of the PD

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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby pask2155 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:48 pm

discspeed wrote:
pask2155 wrote:What have you guys noticed is the difference (IF ANY) from the PD to the ORC? They seem the same except the orc may be a touch less HSS, but surely it isn't that much...


There is a LOT of difference between a PD and an Orc. For starters, the Orc is faster with a wider/more flattened wing. This makes it longer and definitely a distance driver rather than a tweener like the PD. Also, Orcs are absolute crap in the wind. I never understood how such a nice flying disc in calm that has a stabilizer on the wing could dump so hard in a headwind, but they do. Even the older more HSS Orcs would flip quickly in a headwind, even if I couldn't turn them at all in calm conditions. Not only do they lack the HSS of the PD, but when they do turn they turn fast and fade late. In contrast the PD is one of the most wind resistant disc I've used, especially considering it's not that overstable. The PD likes to fly flat and straight into the teeth of the wind, and when it does turn you can know it will come back...It's very predictable in that regard. Finally, the Orc is more power hungry than the PD due to it's wider rim.

In conclusion, the PD is a verstatile control driver for all conditions. The Orc is a distance driver that booms as long as there is no head/crosswind.


Huh I have never viewed the Orc as power hungry and both discs are a speed 10. I guess you would have to have them side by side to see... Well either way the head wind is why for me this thing is a workhorse. If fall and the wind blowing every day. So this disc is solid.
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby discspeed » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:58 am

pask2155 wrote:
discspeed wrote:
pask2155 wrote:What have you guys noticed is the difference (IF ANY) from the PD to the ORC? They seem the same except the orc may be a touch less HSS, but surely it isn't that much...


There is a LOT of difference between a PD and an Orc. For starters, the Orc is faster with a wider/more flattened wing. This makes it longer and definitely a distance driver rather than a tweener like the PD. Also, Orcs are absolute crap in the wind. I never understood how such a nice flying disc in calm that has a stabilizer on the wing could dump so hard in a headwind, but they do. Even the older more HSS Orcs would flip quickly in a headwind, even if I couldn't turn them at all in calm conditions. Not only do they lack the HSS of the PD, but when they do turn they turn fast and fade late. In contrast the PD is one of the most wind resistant disc I've used, especially considering it's not that overstable. The PD likes to fly flat and straight into the teeth of the wind, and when it does turn you can know it will come back...It's very predictable in that regard. Finally, the Orc is more power hungry than the PD due to it's wider rim.

In conclusion, the PD is a verstatile control driver for all conditions. The Orc is a distance driver that booms as long as there is no head/crosswind.


Huh I have never viewed the Orc as power hungry and both discs are a speed 10. I guess you would have to have them side by side to see... Well either way the head wind is why for me this thing is a workhorse. If fall and the wind blowing every day. So this disc is solid.


Those ratings are messed up...They've got the Firebird (same bottom as PD, but fat/blunt/slow nose) as a 9 and the Orc (wider wing, sharp nose) listed as a 10 when I honestly think those 2 discs should be 3 points apart. Honestly I think the FB should be an 8 and the Orc should be an 11. The Orc is as fast as the Wraith, but because it is less gyro and has a wing shape that produces less glide, it slows down earlier in it's flight so it's a bit shorter. So if the Orc is an 11 that would make the PD a 10, but the Orc is unquestionably a point or more faster than the PD.

By design I think the Orc would be as understable as a Valk or Beast if it weren't for the flat part on the end of the wing (it has the same top as those). So the Orc is quite high speed understable and it's that wing stabilizer that slows the disc down to help it fade out of the turn before the end of the disc's flight. The PD is sort of a similar idea (overstable/stable bottom wing with understable top), but I think the FB bottom generates a bit more stability (both in resistance to turn and fade) than the Orc bottom(FB bottom angled to produce a high parting line than Orc's). Also, the top of the PD is probably Innova's most gyro top...Just look at how the anhyzer top gets it's mass way to the outside of the disc before abruptly tapering to a sharp point. I think this also helps stabilize the PD's flight.

Anyway, sorry for the essay, but PD vs. Orc has been some thing I've been very interested in both in terms of throwing and how subtle changes in disc design can translate into drastically different flight behavior.
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby JR » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:20 am

Both discs have a healthy fade limiting ultimate distance.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby discspeed » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:07 am

JR wrote:Both discs have a healthy fade limiting ultimate distance.


Orcs, especially those lower than max weight, do not have much fade if you get them up to speed and flying nose down. A 400' flat Orc shot for me has almost no fade...I can't throw a 400' flat shot with a PD as they need more action to get that distance and don't flip enough on their own to get that action without an anny release.
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby JR » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:10 am

The Orc 167 IIRC i have maxes out at 400-410' for me and needs nose flat shots and a slight s-curve because the fade is too hard at my power level for a line drive. A line drive is more like 380-390'. If i throw it at head height or a foot more it still fades enough to drop down faster than a disc staying flat and every foot of added apex height adds to the fade a lot more. From our previous comparisons your added D should help in keeping the disc flat for longer and dropping to low enough to not fade and you might well have more spin than me too so i don't wonder about the difference in our findings. They seem perfectly logical.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby turso » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:51 am

Finally got a reply to my plus mold question on facebook, "Discmania: "The PD has not been produced in plus mold in a while. If there are some still in circulation, they are most likely from an old run.""
Frank Delicious wrote:Every groove is a unique snowflake of suck.


NOS, PD, River, Roc3, Comet, Trident, Mercy, JOKERi, XXX
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby Der Alte » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:00 am

turso wrote:"Discmania: "The PD has not been produced in plus mold in a while. If there are some still in circulation, they are most likely from an old run.""


Funny... At the moment only available C-line PD in InnovaStore Finland seems to be plus mold... http://www.innovastore.fi/product/249/pd-c-line
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby turso » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:08 am

yeah, as far as I know they made a shit-ton of the +mold c-lines in a single go and they're still getting rid of that run. I didn't know they made them in S-line as well, and who knows if it really is an old run or something newer they claim is old stuff.
Frank Delicious wrote:Every groove is a unique snowflake of suck.


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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby Big Tone » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:16 am

Just curious what you PD-lovers are throwing in between your mids and your PD's?
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby Joz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:05 am

Big Tone wrote:Just curious what you PD-lovers are throwing in between your mids and your PD's?


FDs
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby turso » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:40 am

River, but to be honest I don't see the gap between my mids and PD's as a very large one.
Frank Delicious wrote:Every groove is a unique snowflake of suck.


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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby Timko » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:18 am

Joz wrote:
Big Tone wrote:Just curious what you PD-lovers are throwing in between your mids and your PD's?


FDs



These. I have a freak stable C FD and a pretty flippy S FD.
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby Joz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:22 am

Timko wrote:
Joz wrote:
Big Tone wrote:Just curious what you PD-lovers are throwing in between your mids and your PD's?


FDs



These. I have a freak stable C FD and a pretty flippy S FD.


Ditto.
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Re: Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby kern9787 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:33 am

Big Tone wrote:Just curious what you PD-lovers are throwing in between your mids and your PD's?


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P2 - Fuse - ROCS!!! - QJLS - QPLS - QOLS - PD - Predator - Quasar
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Re: The Gospel of the PD

Postby Big Tone » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:44 am

Thanks for the responses! The FD seems to be a popular one. I have yet to try this one.

What are the differences in the JLS vs PLS (plastic aside)? I've wanted to try some of the Millenium line up but have yet to take the leap.
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