Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:56 pm

Ok I am sort of confused. Lol. I think I get what you guys are saying and maybe I asked the wrong the wrong way. But I guess when you throw a hyzer flip and the disc flips up flat... At that point will the disc turn (hss) and fade (lss) the same if you release it flat?

So if I shoot a destroyer and it does a -1 hss and a 3 lss will those numbers be consistant from the flat part of the flight on a hyzer flip? Or should the shot be straighter? Meaning less lateral movement... So the same disc hyzer flipped instead of -1,3 it would be more like a 0,3 because the hss turn took place to flip it flat...

I hope this makes sense. Lol. I'm sorry, just trying to understand all this...
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JHern » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:17 pm

pask2155 wrote:Ok I am sort of confused. Lol. I think I get what you guys are saying and maybe I asked the wrong the wrong way. But I guess when you throw a hyzer flip and the disc flips up flat... At that point will the disc turn (hss) and fade (lss) the same if you release it flat?

So if I shoot a destroyer and it does a -1 hss and a 3 lss will those numbers be consistant from the flat part of the flight on a hyzer flip? Or should the shot be straighter? Meaning less lateral movement... So the same disc hyzer flipped instead of -1,3 it would be more like a 0,3 because the hss turn took place to flip it flat...

I hope this makes sense. Lol. I'm sorry, just trying to understand all this...


Don't worry, you're working with primitive flight ratings systems, which don't always make sense from a physical point-of-view, and which also leave out many important details about the disc flight characteristics. Also, when they say 3 lss, what is this supposed to mean? 3 what? In the future we will use numbers that have actual units (3˚, 3 meters, 3 something!), and which can predict how the disc flies in a way that can be verified by real measurements. Until then, you can't really say that a disc "does a -1 hss and a 3 lss" because those numbers have no meaning in terms of something that can be physically measured.

Say a disc thrown perfectly flat at a given speed and spin rate (and standard atmospheric conditions) will turn right X˚during the high speed (climb) portion of a flight, and then it will turn left Y˚ during the low speed (descent) portion of a flight. For the same throw, but just adding 5˚ hyzer, the same disc will instead turn right X+dX˚ degrees during the high speed portion of the flight, where dX is a small number (dX/X~10%), because it isn't working directly against gravity during the highest speed portion of the flight, giving it a higher effective angle of ascent (ascending at an angle, instead of vertically) which in turn creates a smaller angle of attack, moving the center of lift behind the center of the disc so that it lifts the tail edge and depresses the leading edge, which is what causes the disc to turn right.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:01 pm

So once the disc pops flat the turn is x+xd... So it is more turn or to the right...?
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JHern » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:58 pm

pask2155 wrote:So once the disc pops flat the turn is x+xd... So it is more turn or to the right...?


No, by the time it pops flat, it has slowed down, and is at the cruise speed, so no longer turning. And add to that, turning over from flat is not as easy as turning over from hyzer. That's how you get "flip flat flies straight."
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:28 am

Gotcha! I'm catching on now! Lol. Sorry... So if it pops up flat and slows Down and is at cruising speed why is this better for max d? Wouldn't a flat release and let the disc take its flight path better?
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JR » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:15 am

Different purposes for different flight paths. With most discs s-curves add to the distance and there are very few exceptions. Hyzer flip to flat allows people to throw slow low fade discs like Leopards on lasers without fade if thrown hard and low enough. When you would probably flip them releasing flat and the turn would compromise the glide dropping the disc down too soon for best possible distance and being understable and low fade a disc might not pull out of the anhyzer early enough to avoiding a too early high speed crash to the ground. That can cut roll to the left upon landing. Thrown higher the flipping disc can perform an s-curve just like an anhyzered overstable disc. The apex height and power requirement differ vastly. Even power players might not have enough room always to get an overstable disc s-curving far enough but if the obstacles that make that shot impossible don't hamper a hyzer flip with a milder disc you've got a solution.

Building a bag of tricks with very different discs helps especially in getting out of trouble shots. A hyzer flip to flat is great for tunnels.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:50 am

so the only reason hyzer flips are better for max d is because you can use a more understable disc? Such as a katana or nuke ss and it won't dump on you but will flex way out and come back? Is that the idea?
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JR » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:23 am

Power requirement and more time at or close to flat maximizing the glide thus air time is why a hyzer flip with a low fade disc goes far. A higher fade disc needs to anny in the middle of the flight for best average lift. If you had a similar speed and glide to your longest disc in a another disc that wouldn't fade at all it would fly farther than the fading disc when thrown flat.

You can can throw more overstable discs roughly as far as similarly fast and gliding disc if you release them at anny and get the same average glide and speed. That may not be totally achievable thanks to gravity but for practical purposes it is close enough. Riding the wind is another matter and from 2000 on world distance records have been hyzer flips and before that both ways had produced records.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:29 pm

last question I think...lol... So does hyzer flips affect the fade or LSS of a disc? If so... how?
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby Fightingthetide » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:38 pm

This might seem like an arrogant question (and I don't mean it to be), but have you thrown any of your discs on hyzer to see what happens? That might answer some of your questions.

Are you asking about the fade of a disc thrown on hyzer vs. the fade of the same disc thrown flat? In short - a disc will fade harder when thrown on hyzer, unless it's really understable and it doesn't have enough LSS to fade back. Latitude 64 Diamond comes to mind...steeeeep hyzer, 50' high, and I made one finish 200' to the right.

Example: You have an understable disc that never fades when thrown flat - It always finishes right. If you throw it on hyzer, it flips up to flat, and then it actually fades. Throw it on more hyzer and it fades more. Of course, all of this is pending on nose angles: Nose up = less turn, more fade. Nose down = more turn, less fade.

Pretty simple stuff. Get out and do some field work to learn these lines. That's what will help your game improve. I realize you are trying to learn the physics behind flight, which really is fun to learn, but theory will only get you so far in the long run.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JR » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:59 am

The hyzer flip changes when a disc start to fade in time. Which means speed and spin is different at that time. If your disc is at the same altitude while flat later the disc can move slower and still hit the ground later and most likely be farther down the line. LSS of the disc is a continuum of speed and spin and a flat flipped hyzer and an s-curve with the same disc at the same speed and apex height is not the same when the fade begins. I have not seen comparison data on what Jon Drummond said in one of the articles on the main page about hyzer flip bleeding speed. The disc rises against gravity while in hyzer so i don't doubt that. But if you manipulate the flight with the nose angle being the same and the apex height being equal and the disc flexing back at the same height being flat for both lines the gravity helps the s-curve some. I'm not sure you could achieve those conditions in any way. So a more practical way of looking at this is to compare the speed and spin difference. Spin drops quicker than the speed but usually you want to avoid slowing the disc too much because it stalls out early so a higher s-curve looses out to a lower s-curve with enough speed to extend the high glide portion of the flight enough to have the disc land flat or a little hyzered. That optimal height s-curve has less or more speed in it when it gets to flat depending on the wind speed and direction so good luck measuring the differences. A video is an easy way to do it. But what would that accomplish? You will see where the disc lies after the throw so why not throw a flat low/no fade line drive and an s-curve with the longest distance potential discs for your current power?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:58 am

Oh yeah trust me guys I field practice all the time. This is all just theory for me. I'm messing with a wide range of discs and so I just want to know the theory to make sure my results in the field match. But some discs are a little more weird then others. Like loes/eagles I can flip them flat and they fly 350 all day long. My pd and sword don't like to be flipped even in a head wind. Those are flat releases unless I want to ride a hyzer line. But I got a few nukes that are tempermenatL where sometimes flipping them will make em sore! Like 400'+ but other times they ride a hyzer.

So in short I like to know the theory because if I wanna do a 385' tunnel shot that shanks left I want to know is a sword thrown flat better? Or a nuke hyzer flipped. And seeing flipping a disc flat doesn't affect the fade. This now answers that question. Nose down hyzer flip a nuke because it will cut later and harder than my sword.

Anyhow don't think I'm being lazy guys. I probably do field work 4 times a week. In fact because I have a field right by my house and the closest course in 10 miles away I probably do more field work then golf. Lol
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby kern9787 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:33 am

pask2155 wrote:So in short I like to know the theory because if I wanna do a 385' tunnel shot that shanks left I want to know is a sword thrown flat better? Or a nuke hyzer flipped. And seeing flipping a disc flat doesn't affect the fade. This now answers that question. Nose down hyzer flip a nuke because it will cut later and harder than my sword.


Well... I wouldn't think of a nuke as a good disc for a tunnel shot. But you have the right idea for that shot I believe. Personally, I'd be throwing a predator with a very slight hyzer (it will stand up for me when powered), a PD hyzer flipped, or a QJLS hyzer flipped, depending on how hard to the left the hole actually finishes. I may be slightly biased though, as I dislike using my wide rimmed drivers for shots under ~425' unless I'm looking for a massive skip on a short shot.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby JR » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:34 pm

I'd throw the disc that you can trust the most. Not to flip over and not to fade out too early. Preferably with a not too high power requirement disc to require uncontrollably much power input risking wrist rolls etc. Nuke fades harder so maybe the Sword could be more consistent and forgiving of too little power generation.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hyzer flip and disc movement question...

Postby pask2155 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:58 pm

Yes I would agree with both of you and usually my sword is my tunnel shot disc. I just wondered how a hyzer flip would react. Like I said this is all just me trying to learn. I carry a sword and pd for tunnel shots. Pd is for about 330' or less. Sword for 330+ tunnels. The nukes is for open 400+ shots.

I've just been working on control lately and messing with hyzer flips and wondering what the theory is behind it. So now when it dog legs left hard core I now have a theory I can trust to shoot rather then hope based on a number chart which is all relative
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