"Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby keltik » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:38 pm

I think these two are gonna break the server.
keltik
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:12 pm
Location: High Point NC
Favorite Disc: Polecat!! Ò.ó

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:19 am

Plonked Parks unless he's giving false advice from now on. That kid has very little relevant to contribute. Poodle humping my leg ad nauseum perpetually grows old especially when usually his posts to others are pretty useless too. Why not try to find similar company? Re DGCR go find it and how about expanding your horizons? Why not hump a cop's leg or the military, gangsters etc? Or if that gets old how about finding a useful goal for your life?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11522
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby Parks » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:36 am

JR wrote:Poodle humping my leg ad nauseum perpetually grows old especially when usually his posts to others are pretty useless too.


Leopard carried the torch for me on this for a while. I'll leave it to him since he does it in a more lighthearted manner.
We're at our best when it's from our hips
Parks
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby Mark Ellis » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:25 pm

In truth I just could not bring myself to read most of this thread but nonetheless, now that the intensely scientific micro-management of throwing form in pursuit of maximum distance has died down I would offer the following formula. NOT, mind you NOT in the hopes that a player can throw a disc over the moon but rather that a player can develop accuracy and consistency, my simple keys would be:

Smooth
Balanced
Flat
Full follow through
Practiced

This, combined with a good tournament head and a putter which avoids the dirt may not satisfy the sophisticated audience which frequents this site but could well win a myriad of PDGA sanctioned tournaments.
Mark Ellis
The Big Fundamental
User avatar
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:32 pm
Location: Brighton, Michigan
Favorite Disc: Rattler

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby Simeon » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:57 pm

Hello to everybody, and Peace!
First I want to thank you Mr Iacas for your research and efforts with this project. Keep going.

This is a project that needs the judge, leader or however you name him. He will make a logical conclusion from all the data we will provide him. That is not anything dramatic. If the judge rejects some information he is given to without close study, he will lose the recpect from us and this thread will die. After that somebody else will, hopefully, continue this interesting research.
At the moment I trust Iacas is striving honestly for an unbiased list based on facts.

Beside that, Iacas, in the following example you "forgot" to mention you don't have the final list. Thus you asked for more troubles and we others had to read still more debate. Some people can read between lines what is your actual meaning but that is not self evident, as you see.

JR wrote:You have already made mistakes in the keys list

iacas wrote:I don't even have a Keys list!?!


To have a preliminary plan or model is normal process when resarching. Further studies and open-minded discussion will guide it to some direction.

Now, let's go to an actual case concerning the research on the Simple Keys list:
Someone, (there might be some others beside JR), tells that after the first steps you have to push with your left foot (rhbh) when throwing or before throwing. Now. what the the judge will do? He will go and find 20 other pro players, who can confirm that without pushing he will lose distance. In addition the judge will check if he is able to find DG instructors from youtube who are teaching: foot push, hips, shoulders and so on. If the judge is not able to have these findings, he can not but reject the foot push theory as being unreliable. That is part of his work. He just have to proceed that way.

I have got some positive words about the work JR has been doing, of cource, but on an other time.

-Timo
Simeon
Noob
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:27 am
Location: Finland, lake level

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:46 am

I'm siding with iacas on that whichever person is trying to apply any research methods to any study should follow the data and do measurements. I would trust data instead of the judge or the top pros. If none of the pros do something optimally but it is a known physics phenomenon and it can be applied in practice for measurable differences in using the idea or not that data should be used as a basis for conclusions. Each pros might not know or be able to or have chosen to use all the same ideas. Whether it falls under a key by any definition is another matter.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11522
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby treehugger87 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:13 pm

I was thinking about a similar set of keys to the game but in a simpler way. At this point I'm just starting to understand and impliment the more specific, technical parts of form. I do realize that the nuances, technical aspects and physics of form are what ultimately let you attain the goals of driving 450'+ and being a consistent putter within so many feet of the basket and being accurate consistently. At the same time I'm wondering what the ends are that these means are trying to achieve, such as what is the workable distance of a successful, well-rounded disc golfer (all around, not just tournament play or casual rounds). I'm not necessarily talking about the extremes either. We all know about the freaks of the disc golf world who can hit ridiculous distances consistently and who never miss a putt, but what are the "simple keys" for a player that is consistently doing well? I'm getting at something like this:

-Consistent putter within __'
-Has a workable golf distance of ___'-___'
-Etc.

I know I'm leaving a lot out, but what should be added to this list of "simple keys" for a well-rounded, successful disc golfer?
treehugger87
Noob
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:42 am
Location: The Bluegrass State
Favorite Disc: DX Destroyer

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby iacas » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:56 pm

treehugger87 wrote:-Consistent putter within __'
-Has a workable golf distance of ___'-___'
-Etc.

Those are good ideas, but that's not the way "Keys" were defined in this particular instance. Sounds like a good starting list for a different thread, though.
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby rhatton2 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:45 am

Very old thread bump but i found this interesting at the time and still do.

A few suggestions for this that as far as I can see are common to all good backhand drives no matter the different style.

1. Closed shoulder through to the power pocket ( I can't think of any form that doesn't have this although the amount they open through the Hit varies)
2. Hand on the outside of the disc until maximum distance forward achieved. (again this seems to be standard across all forms allowing for the strongest leveraging of the backside of the disc to the front)
3. Weight stays inside the feet and shifts from back foot to front. Much bad form is people going too far over the back on reachback or finishing too far forward on release. all pros that I can think off keep their weight centered inside the feet and move it fluidly back to front.
4. Strong brace against front right side leading to no.5
5. Squeeze betweeen the knees - illustrated position here - Image
6. Some form of active wrist extension through the Hit.

I'm sure something else to do with the thumb pushing through the hit but high enough speed video so far just isn't available to tell this satisfactorily.
rhatton2
Noob
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:57 am
Favorite Disc: Wizard/Roc

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby rhatton2 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:54 am

I would say all of those are in some way measurable, not sure how but they should be, they should all be achievable and coachable to any level of player and improve their game as a result.

I think this is what Iacas was originally looking for, but could be very wrong.
rhatton2
Noob
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:57 am
Favorite Disc: Wizard/Roc

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby PMantle » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:22 am

Image
PMantle
Fairway Surgeon
 
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:11 am
Location: Alexandria, La.
Favorite Disc: Pure

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby iacas » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:11 pm

rhatton2 wrote:I would say all of those are in some way measurable, not sure how but they should be, they should all be achievable and coachable to any level of player and improve their game as a result.

I think this is what Iacas was originally looking for, but could be very wrong.


In looking at them quickly they seem like a good list. Pretty busy these days with some other things (mostly golf related), so I regretfully can't get into them a BUNCH right now, but I'll try to remember to get back here and discuss it.
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby HyzerUniBomber » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:57 pm

Hey Guys,

Jason here from HeavyDisc. Rich suggested I jump into the mix... I'm gonna ramble.

One thing I think could be added to a previous key, not sure exactly which one - would be proper posture & balance. I feel like you should be able to take each key above, and without the right posture & balance, they'd be worthless.

I might as well jump down the rabbit hole immediately and say that it might be worth getting really specific with what style of throwing we're talking about.

Wide rail vs a straight pull? I'd argue that out of the box, wide-rail has more potential for distance. By remapping the arc to a motion that focuses more on holding to the latest possible time, you get that effortless distance. Adding a hip -> core -> right pec -> loaded wrist -> extension -> shoulder pull -> wrist extension to the rail may be beyond my timing ability. If I could do it as well as I can throw a straight back pull through, I think it would be an enormous throw.

Typically though, when I try to add to the mix any real power input (in any form) - I screw up balance and posture and lose the magic. With the rail, it seems to be very easy to just hold on long enough for the magic. Magnifying it is going to take much work.

If I just do a straight pull through, I feel like it's relatively simple to time the elbow extension to shoulder involvement to get a pretty solid meat and potatoes throw.

Here's a couple standstills w/ the straight pull followed by a slow motion wide pull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0Rlle5ARY
HyzerUniBomber
Noob
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:16 pm
Favorite Disc: Truth

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby JR » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:47 am

Welcome hyzer. In your video the straight pulls have the reach back position to the right of where it should be. for a straight pul that is. The disc would move through your torso if it were moving in a straight line. OTOH that to the right reach back getting to a straight line pull from the center of the torso forward adds a little more rotational weight shift like in a 360 throw so there is more distance potential there and you realize it many do not. Because they tend to arc the throw around the body not getting close to the body as the disc passes the torso.

In the rail throw you could try what kind of difference it makes if you did not bring the disc from wide off the body to close to the body at the center of the torso but later around the right pec area when the elbow leads the throw a lot. You might get a lot of snao that way because you could get more plyometric loading and unloading going on adding to the final acceleration aka snap.

I am not sure of what you mean by loaded wrist> extension. Do you mean straightening of the elbow by extension here? It would make sense.

Timing is hard and i would not be surprised if you got better results by timing right pec position> hip twist which is preceded by rear leg push instead of what you suggested. Which is the opposite regarding the timing of the torso twisting to the right from the hips prior to the disc getting to the right pec. If you switch those around you will delay the onset of the real power generation aka acceleration. And in physics power equals mass times acceleration. so the more acceleration you have while getting to great speed and being able to hold on to the disc for a great disc pivot the better off you are. Here people have immense variance becuase of lack of tewchnique and muscle imbalances. some may have stronger body parts in one place and be marred by a weak part that is a totally different combo to the next player. Some may not have any strong parts in their bodies and others may be men of steel everywhere.

rhatton2 made a good point about being knock kneed. You don't see that in too many new to moderately good players.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11522
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: "Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

Postby rhatton2 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:27 am

[quote="HyzerUniBomber"

specific with what style of throwing we're talking about.
[/quote]

This isn't quite what Iacas was looking for I think.

The idea and the part that really interests me about this is the commonalities across ALL forms.

It's along the same lines as the annoyance i've written about elsewhere of people constantly saying "yeah, but, what about him? he does it like this and he does it like that" when you are trying to teach a motion to people - everyone seems more able to spot what people are doing differently than what they are doing the same.

What we are trying to find are the keys that are there for all forms, those that we can pick out and say "yeah, ok well forget about all those other idiosyncrasies - they ALL do this from Feldberg to Schusterick to Mcbeth to Kallstrom and Sandstrom.

Why does this idea excite me and why has it been lurking at the back of my mind for a couple of years since Iacas' original post? Because I believe the commonalities are there and if we can draw them out and pinpoint them they can become the grass roots of good coaching, give players these fundamentals and they can build their own idiosyncrasies (hell we can help to coach these idiosyncrasies by for example getting them to try the curved rail line as opposed to the straight pull - both though still have the same basic idea at heart, back edge to front in shortest time possible)

Disc golf coaching is by and large out in the wild awful. Really truly terrible. We've all heard the appalling advice given to others, very often by very experienced players,(we've probably all stepped in before to say actually, um that's not quite right, to then get battered down with "what do you know his rating is 10 points higher than yours?") who think they do one thing but are actually doing something totally different. DGR/Blake/Dan/Bradley/JHERN/JR and all the others fortunately opened my eyes many years ago, but I (like pretty much everyone else reading this thread) am in the minority of addicted idiots willing to spend the time searching for the holy grail of good form.

There have been so many brilliant instructional articles and threads over the years on this forum and in the last few months over at (whispers it quietly) DGCR and Reddit, the problem or the problem as I see it is they have all been a bit disjointed and to pull out the gems from the discussions takes one hell of a lot of reading and often reading of the same things again and again to find the one priceless bit and then practising it to death on the field. The vast majority aren't sensible/bored/addicted/stupid (delete as appropriate) enough to do all this reading and watching and often fruitless practising when you haven't quite grasped the concept correctly.

I think from all the good work done by everyone here and expanded on elsewhere we have the building blocks for good form for all that should be coachable to everyone (that wants to learn) if we can focus on the keys that should be in everyones actions it should be possible to create the form "bible" as it were.

It's about time
rhatton2
Noob
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:57 am
Favorite Disc: Wizard/Roc

PreviousNext

Return to Technique

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests