Hammer vs. the Rail

[keltik]

Where is the shoulder pause exactly? (in that Rico video) I don't see any pause. *confused* It just looks like the shoulder leads the throw in a continuous motion.

look @ 0:16 he is at reach back then he turns the torso and the arm moves from the right pec before the shoulder comes around. That I think is what is meant by shoulder "pause". The whole throwing motion should be continuous and fluid but everything has an order of operations.

[LYang]

Pretty close to top-down at 2:00 mark.

[Blake_T]

look @ 0:16 he is at reach back then he turns the torso and the arm moves from the right pec before the shoulder comes around. That I think is what is meant by shoulder "pause". The whole throwing motion should be continuous and fluid but everything has an order of operations.

Correct. People seem to misunderstand this a lot. Just because the shoulder doesn't spin in one continuous motion doesn't mean you aren't moving the entire time.

If the shoulder rotates all the way around at one speed, there is no way to get the elbow and disc forward.

[keltik]

Blake you still didn't say whether Rico throws on a rail or a hammer path?

[zj1002]

To me putting somone in a box of "hammer or rail" won't help define anything

You need to understand and use both to throw properly

[keltik]

I don't disagree zj but putting a full motion video with the concept may help people visualize both. at least we have a good visual of shoulder "pause" now. I mean we've already "boxed in" the swedes.

[Blake_T]

Rico throws with more of a rail. On most of those throws he isn't throwing with much of a reachback, but if you watch, the disc does get forward before his shoulders open up.

His motion is different from most long throwing pros, but if you watch his hand/wrist behavior it is the same as most.

[Star Shark]

He doesn't need to throw that hard at Sylmar. He aceruns most of the holes there with a leopard at most.

[JHern]

I think I throw more with a hammer than a rail, but I've seen many people throw with more of a rail style and have been thinking about experimenting. Here is how I'm interpreting Blake:

For the hammer, what it really comes down to (it seems to me) is the feeling of throwing the disc's center of mass (aka "feeling the weight shift") instead of throwing off center. The disc is pulled on a straight line, power is applied through the disc's center, and the rotation is imparted by the rolling of the disc around the hand and off the pinch point. The wrist goes from the opposite side of the disc to the right side (RHBH) at the rip. It's the flinging feeling of getting the pinch point around, and applying a smooth acceleration through the disc's center, feeling the hammer pound, that allows you to get decent distance without much effort.

For the rail, I'm interpreting more wrist wag with the disc being pulled more from the front and the rotation coming only very late (the extension and contraction of a tendon bounce, with rotation coming from the uncoiling very late in the throw). This is probably where good hand and lower arm strength (iron grip) should come in very handy. Also, the ability to apply power rapidly and in a controlled manner toward the end of the throw.

It's hard to describe all this in words, but the pictures are helpful.

He doesn't need to throw that hard at Sylmar. He aceruns most of the holes there with a leopard at most.

Or a Ghost...

[Blake_T]

Not quite jhern. The hammer is more about arcing the forearm out and around off the center, bringing the outer edge around witha slam and crashing the wrist open with a little zip at the end. It reminds me a bit of the sidearm video you posted a few years back... But backhand and with the extension providing the last bit of zing.

The rail is a different method of bringing the edge around using directions to manipulate the disc's weight shift rather than joints of the body.

[seabas22]

After first seeing the diagram I was positive I was throwing the hammer and still am. All of Blake's statements about the hammer have made sense about why I obsess so much about posture and grip. I still struggle with getting the nose down or keeping the wrist down and wonder if it has to do with the wrist being slammed open. I also wonder about the hammer being rougher on the joints especially with golfer's elbow(medial epicondylitis).

I'm a little confused on how to use "directions" to manipulate the disc's weight shift rather than the joints? I think if the elbow was drawn in the rail diagram I might understand it better.

[keltik]

I know I feel it in my elbow if I "hammer" a shot.

[Blake_T]

Keltik: sounds like you are trying to forcibly stop everything. They key is not to stop, but to consciously only try to move a certain length. This allows for some natural deceleration of one lever before the next joint unloads, which alleviates any "jarring" to the joints. When the last joint unloads (the wrist) momentum keeps things moving.

Seabas: it becomes very clear if you use a very extreme form of the rail. Keep your arm straight and grab the disc like you are holding a steering wheel with your arm pointed downwards and the disc flat (around waist high or slightly lower). Using mainly the rotation of your upper arm, start going through the rail. There will be some SLIGHT shoulder movement as your arm moves but avoid using your shoulder to "pull" the arm.

As you go along the rail you are basically turning the disc. If you are leading with the bottom of the handle, any significant directional change of the handle will cause the disc's weight to change direction. As the rail arcs around towards the front the outer edge of the disc should want to whip around naturally.

When you have a feel for that, start tweaking the direction of the handle and feel what types of directional changes yield the strongest edge around behavior.

[JR]

I would not mind having the experiences of other in the amount of movement and direction of each body part moving and how many inches long the movement is for their strongest direction change.

[Blake_T]

Jr: the actual measurements vary greatly from person to person, even down to things such as the ratio of length of the radius to the ulna. Someone with a 1:1 ratio vs. someone with a 1:1.3 ratio will have completely different measurements for maximum strength exertion. Ideal physics calculations vs. what a person can actually do often fail to coincide.

If someone traces different rail shapes and gauges the force/acceleration of the outer edge, even without throwing a disc (merely having a disc in hand and feeling it), it should take less than 50 reps to find an approximation of what is strongest. This includes the height of the rail, directions of the rail, etc. If timing is equal, longer arms and bigger hands will always be capable of generating more power than shorter arms and smaller hands and maximum efficiency will depend upon the thrower's weakest point and how they choose to compensate for that. Not to mention, for each speed change, the shape of the rail changes as well.

There is an ideal, but you either have the timing or you don't. The timing dominates positions in this case by a wide margin.