Hammer vs. the Rail

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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:52 am

The strength of the weakest link probably matters too and i'm afraid i might have a double threat. While i think that my grip strength in the fingers is a little lacking for anything but mid throws injury prevention might be the big issue. I can spin up a disc big time at low power as evidenced by high speed video but damned if i can get the same movements done at higher speeds. So it's either super straight approach shot or too fast to handle lower relative spin rate drive that goes farther. I have tried to combine the best of both worlds trying all different speeds and working out to eliminate too little muscle power as a reason. I've hit a wall there or sort of. I have pushed too far in practice too often and throwing light lids i obviously have a lacking wrist even compared to a lady in my club. Meh. Not training enough to equal that part with a woman throwing shorter than i do is discouraging and training harder leads to sick leave slowing down the progress. I guess i have strides to make in time as my arm gets stronger. It sucks to wait but i've only recently been able to use the Jenkins thumb grip so i guess slow progress is better than no progress no matter how frustrating it is. Having done different rail shapes and direction changes years ago i've found a way to spin up the disc that is too hard to produce at high enough power. I will need to explore different methods again to see if i could find a way that allows speeding up despite having no luck in years. It is always good to revisit the basics. You never can tell if you run into a light bulb moment until you have a hunch and at the time having had at least one step in the rail type of thinking years ago i can't tell if it is good enough or if there's room to improve.

You've written that people can get an immediate 50' boost in distance getting the wrist to snap versus a stiff wrist. My no wind line drive record is 70' more than my wrist locked record. With discs flying their best for respective distances. I haven't done that distance comparison with a single disc for both ways of throwing. Neither result was achieved with the method of spinning the disc as much as possible with my current knowledge.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:11 am

Jr: what you are telling me with your post is that you are moving too fast to hang on when you try to throw harder.

Neither of these styles are meant to focus on spin, their goal is to transfer the angular velocity of the disc edge into its forward launch velocity. I dont think you have figured out control of the discs's mass/momentum yet. When you have a feel for that, you don't try to move faster than you can hold onto it, knowing that it's a physics trick that will put speed on the disc more than arm speed.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:44 pm

I have come to the conclusion that for the similar speed that i can get the water bottle drill to work at the way you described it i have to move at such a slow speed that i can't yet get any distance with. What the reason is is unclear to me. Lack of muscle power or unconscious protection of the arm that kicks in even in putts i can't say yet with my limited experience. I am fairly sure that given my few successes with super slow in fast out throws people with real muscle power and acceleration ability can transfer the momentum of the previous movements at a way higher efficiency than i can. Losing out to a woman with dozens of feet of less max D than me in wrist power. That has already given me a focus on which to concentrate on in muscle power training. And speed and control. Which does point out to what you said about going too fast in to hold on to the disc. Back to field practice and drawing board which is problematic in these temperatures. You are absolutely right in that i don't yet know what the maximum speed for me is that i can hold onto the disc is. I have been meaning to do that practice on the field for the entire season and have been carried out with throwing fast and far instead instead of with disc mass shift and efficiency. While realizing i should try something else instead having plateaud for too long. Like different speeds and angles. For all power levels and not just very (too? sub 150' level) short throws. That is the only distance i've been able to consistently to get a very late rip at.

Thus far it feels and based on a very few high speed videos i seem to be able to rip at fingers touching the disc only at 4.30 o'clock max on anything resembling a drive mostly 4 o'clock. With too few throws at 5-6 o'clock rips even with a Spike with thin and very small wing profile catering for my small and and fingers. So all that sounds to result in the conclusion of going way too fast in to hold onto the disc while not being able to pinch and move the wrist actively to the right of neutral forcefully enough. Something to work on in the winter.

The smash factor per golfers describing the club head speed vs ball speed applied to disc golf and the wrist and the disc speeds seem to point to my inability to needing to slow down and developing the wrist enough to be able to accelerate the disc to more speed than the wrist overall higher speed than the whole body can generate as shown by the measurements of Carlsen of among others 600' Teebird throwing Norwegian players showed. I just wish i knew exactly what i lack is the key to unlocking that extra distance. Throwing slow as in an approach at pulled power has not helped so far.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:27 am

So far adding more spin has meant adding more speed to the disc for me seeing how i get micro slips and lack spin and speed from not having a full disc pivot. I think i need to think more about how to move to be able to lessen the amount of grip power needed to get a 5-6 o'clock rip point from the fingers. Along with in and out speed optimization training. The only way i've gotten the water bottle drill to work as described is to go in so slowly that throwing in the same way produces super short throws gaah.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:34 am

I don't ever get to a 5 or 6 release point but i regularly get to 4-4:30.

Both the hammer and rail don't yield that late of a release, and the rail is usually closer to 3-4.

Strength or rim configuration must be limiting you on it. If i move as slow as i can, starting at the center of my body or farther forward, the disc still goes 220'-280' and if i shorten that even more, say, starting 12" past the right edge of my body i can still throw 180-220'.

Either the strength isn't there or you aren't applying it at the right time.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:02 am

I get 4 o'clock when i pinch so hard that my arm moves slower when i squeeze hard early in the throw to make sure i'm not late in the pinch. That is not my normal way of throwing. I have done field tests to how far i throw with different short arm movements but i can't recall the exact details from last year. I should test that before the snow falls meaning soon. Of course i got enough cold today to make me shiver... It is interesting that the rail and the hammer (i think i'm more hammering) rip out at where i usually do. 3 o'clock is easy and i'm often at 3.15-3.30.

If i had to hazard a guess to stand still center of the body throw distance i got at best to around 230-250'. I get past 300' starting from the front of the disc being parallel to my left side with sneaking speed x step with shortened steps to not get the disc farther back. My D slides down fast when i move to the right pec drill position. I can't recall really but i might not have gotten past 200'. I might have a slight muscle power and grip change advantage this year using the Jenkins thumb method now. I'll test these positions later to get current distances.

The second time i got a 6 o'clock rip stuck to my memory. It was super duper slow to the front of the disc being 12" past the right side pulling the elbow back to bent from having straightened it before and actively snapping the wrist right and rare for me managing to put on the breaks well with the wrist. The pinch was late and automated to be harder than i can get consciously. It was a Spike so the leverage of the fingers was there to help n the grip. Based on how the few 347' after skips Buzzz shots this season felt i have improved grip strength on the best days vs last year thanks to at least in part to the Jenkins thumb usage. I think the fingers inside the disc get squashed a little harder this year too. I can't get as tight a squeeze with a Leopard as i do with mids. It is not far behind at all but Teebirds and Gazelles are clearly compromised in gripping strength. I don't know how far i could get TBs now from not trying but Leo hyzer flip to flat almost no fade topped out at 377' IIRC in cool weather when i tried them after a long pause. Champ 175 Star 175 faded out but i couldn't get it to flip and i got it to 36x'.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:09 pm

From the sound of it, you are moving too fast to time the pinch. I slow down the process until i feel the time to pinch. That keeps me fluid until i should be strong. The key to remember is that you are trying to make the outer edge of the disc move fast and not the hand/arm.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:07 pm

Based on the info i've given that would be a logical conclusion but i'm not so sure that it is the right one. I have had a tenth of an inch deep intendation for the whole width of the index finger outermost section from pinching late so there is power. So much so that it takes literally a minute as in one for the skin to return to normal flat. But it is good the test to be sure by throwing slow and i have had timing slumps with the pinch and have been forced to slow down to rebuild the timing. All of those tries have lead to the same form and timing so far even though i've gained more muscle power everywhere in the years that i've pinched.

Would you say it is easier for everyone to make the outside edge of the disc to move fast when the hand is moving slowly? The reason i ask is that i have so much more power in the wrist FH than BH that stopping the wrist is easy for me. And that launches a visibly different flight path vs not as twitchy short and quick wrist acceleration then steely stop. Something i cannot reproduce with as much acceleration and deceleration rate BH. I get similar movements but the scale is different and BH moves slower for me. Because i also have more control FH thanks to more power despite having hundreds of times fewer reps i start all sorts of timing recalibrations FH first to get the physical feeling of the movements. And once that feels better i move to BH.

I have a fear that my problem is lacking wrist power because FH is too much easier to wrist snap with.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:55 am

From what you wrote here, your timing/flow probably is the dominant factor (just as it is for most people).

When i hit one hard, the release feels good. It doesn't quite feel like nothing, but it doesn't feel like there's any pull or drag against my fingers. It feels like my fingers pulled the disc forwards like a slingshot. No friction, no pain, no counter pull. Its like the fingers pull in towards the palm and that sends the disc forwards. The pressure point is on the inner rim wall.

I don't feel my wrist stop either, i just feel the disc move around the arc and

Basically, what you are describing isnt anything close to what i feel or what others describe to feel which leads me to believe it isnt there.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:03 am

At least my pressure point is on the inner wall and my fingers pull toward the palm. If you mean that the wrist moves forward when you pinch then i get the slingshot reference because my wrist absolutely does fling forward like the rubber band and projectile from a slingshot. Testing eliminating the wrist movement removed 70' distance from a full run up full power throw last fall. I don't feel scraping with drivers. I do with a power grip with tall putters but don't with the same discs with a fan grip or a loose two finger grip. I can feel the pivot of the disc often not always. On the days i can i can time the pinch to be later and it becomes stronger. I only gain a slightly straighter finish and often under 10' extra over normal good day distance.

I have had different feeling throws in the fingers going to my maximum distance. Some have the feeling of pressure against the fingers some don't. I cannot tell if the inability to feel pressure in the fingers at times comes from a looser grip or the inability of my brain to process the data from concentrating on throwing, mistiming the pinch too late or having it be too weak or something else. I don't think my grip is too hard because i really can't lift a 13 kilo dumbbell with the index finger and thumb outer parts alone. Meaning i can lift it for a second or so at most and just barely move it. What i can say for sure is that i have the same distance whether i feel pressure on the fingers or not. I have no idea of how indicative the feeling or lack thereof is as an indicator of a good pull.

Testing conditions just became worse because now there's snow on the ground. It is so cold that even rubber discs are fairly slick for me. I have not tested my electrical heating gear in such a low temperature yet. It is a must for any kind of testing. The snow should melt next week so i hope i can test then.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:54 am

The snow melted so i went to a training field. 34 F i was wearing too little and used a pouched electronic warmer for the fingers. It was a little windy at times moderate wind at the most and i threw in a head- and rear wind. Super soft 175 Warlock, 172 Grip Pure and 165 DX XD. The field was in the process of starting the conversion into a skating park. Two tractors were spreading water so i had to hurry and got in only a few throws. I had to adjust how i throw into a good height. And produced so little power that the wrist would not bend back that well. Being cold and not having gotten the muscles used to throwing i made very little effort to resist the bending back of the wrist mostly. The times i tried it the results were the same because i failed due to the muscles not working well enough. That suggests the need to build up more power to have a safety margin against fatigue, being cold etc. I settled into a two finger grip with the thumb in the Jenkins way with the base of the thumb in the air at times and at times on the flight plate. With so few throws i can't say if there was a distance difference. I got noticeable distance variations based on the apex height and getting these putters the farthest just did not work for me with a shoulder high pull. I always have trouble raising the arm higher than that for long putter drives. Dropping the arm to between the navel and the nipples in height allowed me to throw high enough for the longest throws. All these variables make insane differences to the distance so these had to be specified sorry for the caveat length.

I measured what 15" of the discs front and rear are from my right side and threw from both. All throws in this test were stand stills without a follow though step. For those first two positions my knees were too straight to get full power. I only had about the disc's diameter to work with with the rear of the disc being 15" closer to the target than my right side with everything in my torso and legs pointing 90 degrees left of the target. That was limited to only 110' on the best throw and i got very little legs, hips and the shoulders so it was mostly arm. The same for the front of the disc 15" closer to the target than my right side maxing out at 195' and it was the best snap of the session.

With the disc front edge in the same distance as the right side from the target i maxed out at 203' and this time i leaned back a little and bent the knees to maybe 15 degrees in the lean back.

With the front of the disc at the same distance away from the target as my left side and first leaning back with the same 15 degree bend in the knee i got to the same 203' as i did from the right pec position. Bending the left knee to 75-80 degrees leaning back much farther the XD flew 250' tops into a mild headwind. It flipped a little moving a foot and a half to the right before flexing and landing on the initial line. That snap was the second best of the day. That was the cue for me to leave. Runny nose and shivers after drinking hot water now.

Each of the above measured throws was made how i regularly throw not trying to optimize the snap by actively moving the wrist to the right. I did try to retard the wrist at times but didn't get noticeable differences. Even though i'm sure that the left knee bending angle makes an influence in the distance i had too few throws to get the best possible throws for both ways to get reliable indication to the magnitude the added leg push makes to the distances. In my opinion the 15 degree knee bend from the left side was a poorer throw and a little too low for the best possible distance so distance increase from the added knee bend and the resulting better engagement of the hips and the shoulders together probably do not count for the distance difference of 250'-203' this time. I can jump putt way farther than that but of course not nearly as far with the left leg pushing alone. In these drives the right leg does not jump forward and the left knee ain't as much bent as in a jump putt and that has hips and the arm to add power. So i can't say how much extra distance you get from a left leg push in a stand still drive. Or an x step.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby iacas » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:01 am

JR wrote:I measured what 15" of the discs front and rear are from my right side and threw from both. All throws in this test were stand stills without a follow though step. For those first two positions my knees were too straight to get full power. I only had about the disc's diameter to work with with the rear of the disc being 15" closer to the target than my right side with everything in my torso and legs pointing 90 degrees left of the target. That was limited to only 110' on the best throw and i got very little legs, hips and the shoulders so it was mostly arm. The same for the front of the disc 15" closer to the target than my right side maxing out at 195' and it was the best snap of the session.

Color me confused, but I can barely get to 15" with the back of the disc closer to the target than my right side with a straight elbow and my arm pointing straight out in front of me. My upper arm is not 15" long, and then the diameter of the disc lops off distance that my forearm can get away from my right side. So I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not sure I could throw a disc 30' with the back edge 15" closer to the target than my right side.

Can you clarify?

P.S. I'm measuring to my torso, a few inches below my armpit. Is your ruler just really, really broken? :) Did you put the decimal place in the wrong spot? :D
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:52 am

How short are you really? With just over 15" + the diameter of the disc arm length you're shaped like a T Rex or you are very short. Or you should stop throwing lids :-) Or you have a funky ruler. Or you pointed your arm into a false direction. My right ear canal points to the target and so does my arm with the torso pointing 90 degrees left of the target. So the arm is raised to the right to horizontal level. That is where i had the rip arm straight. In the longer throws the torso and the legs moved in the shorter ones not much at all.

I am 172 cm tall you convert and my middle finger to middle finger tip separation is 66" :-) My arm pit to outermost index finger joint distance is 26 and a half inches when i extend my arm straight to the side like i'd point my finger at the target with the torso pointing 90 degrees left of the target. So the shortest acceleration was around three inches (within my accuracy of body control and a disc with roughly 8 1/2" diameter) because i did not do a weight shift forward with that max 110 feet of flight. When the front of the disc was 15 inches away from my side my elbow was bent roughly 80 degrees. There was very little elbow bending when the rear of the disc was 15" away from my side.

With so little power generation i intentionally used putters not just for the slow speed straightness but also for the ease of grip. The XD is the easiest to grip but in flight it is more of a mid range being so fast and long. I only get around 10-20' more with long mids usually. And the same with Rocs. Even that 250' XD throw would have faded out had the disc not flipped over in the headwind. That is why in all the shorter throws the Pure was the longest flyer because it faded later and turned toward hyzer slower.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby iacas » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:42 am

JR wrote:How short are you really? With just over 15" + the diameter of the disc arm length you're shaped like a T Rex or you are very short.

Your measurements are off. I'm between 5'10" and 5'11". My armpit to wrist measurements are about 21 inches. Fingertip to fingertip is just over 70 inches - four inches longer than yours. All of those measurements are just on the taller/longer side of average.

I read what you wrote as if you were throwing from a starting position that had the rear of the disc 15" closer than the right side of your body, from which it would be virtually impossible to throw 110'. That's why I asked for clarification. This paragraph:
JR wrote:I measured what 15" of the discs front and rear are from my right side and threw from both. All throws in this test were stand stills without a follow though step. For those first two positions my knees were too straight to get full power. I only had about the disc's diameter to work with with the rear of the disc being 15" closer to the target than my right side with everything in my torso and legs pointing 90 degrees left of the target. That was limited to only 110' on the best throw and i got very little legs, hips and the shoulders so it was mostly arm. The same for the front of the disc 15" closer to the target than my right side maxing out at 195' and it was the best snap of the session.

It sounds as if you threw from two positions:

1) First with the front of the disc 15" closer to the target (195' throws).
2) Then with the rear of the disc 15" closer to the target (110' throws).

I contend that the second is impossible, so if that's what you meant, I'd love to see video of you throwing 110' with your size (which is smaller/shorter than mine)!

If you started your throw with the FRONT of the disc 15" closer and released when the REAR of the disc was 15" closer (i.e. the "width of the disc" you talked about), then 110' is believable, but not entirely clear from what you wrote. That's why I asked for clarification.

Adding the detail of where the rear of the disc is at release (if that's what you meant) was pointless, IMO. You could have said more clearly "I threw from a standstill with the front of the disc starting 15" closer to the target..." and not mentioned the release point measurements at all (or if so, state it as front edge 23" closer to the target or something, or state 8" of travel).
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Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:18 am

You seem to have misconceptions here and i'l reply to them properly after i've woken up i'm going to sleep now. Stand with as much body area as possible touching a wall behind you. Back, shoulders, elbows and the back of the hand touching the wall. Then measure the distances again with the arms spread as far apart as possible then using the left arm measure the right side to index finger distance. Your finger tip to finger tip measurements sound correct but the right side to the finger tip doesn't. My spine to middle finger tip distance is 33". That means that that my spine to arm pit distance is 33-26,5 inches. I tried to give more than enough data and still something misfired for you so i'd say i was not wrong in trying to give a lot of data because something did not carry through. My measurement tape has both inches and centimeters and both give perfectly realistic results.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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