Moving from understable to overstable

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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby JR » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:07 pm

The Sls i have thrown and owned have all had more LSS than all the Beasts i've thrown. I have only thrown FLX Avenger SSs which at my power are rollers out of the box. To me the SLs have been impossible to turn without wind and they are more HSS than the Beasts or the probably FR Surge SSs. Meaning none of those turn at full power for me in calm weather but the SL needs more front quarter wind to turn than the others. I agree that the Beast of no configuration is really overstable. That is why i thought that the original poster needs a straight disc like the Beast instead of an overstable one like the thread title suggests. I have only thrown the FLX Avenger SS and it turns like a broken in DX Valk=a lot and Blake's fade characterisation is accurate enough for me regarding the SL but i'd need to add that the fade of the Beasts manufactured within the two previous years is less than that of premium plastics Valks. And on par with broken in DX Valks meaning the amount does not change much and both have little fade. With the Valk having less when broken in and more/the same when new depending on your speed/spin ratio.

To be perfectly clear i state that the Beasts made in the last tow years on average are more HSS by a lot vs an Avenger FLX but having less LSS. Thus i'm interested in seeing how Avenger SSs of other plastics behave vs modern Beasts. When Blake wrote that Valks have more consistent fade than the Beasts i'm not sure of what he meant. Across plastics that would be accurate of older Beasts than two years or newer. The newer ones fade the same each time for me. And Beasts are a moving target because there was the original and different shape and the new mold and the more overstable mold since about two years back that does not flip for a 400'+ 20 revs per second thrower. Like the new molds did. Since Avenger SSs fade consistently too much for ultimate distance for me given my spin constraints i'd say they are very consistent for the LSS even factoring in the less than desirable HSS for the FLX. Other plastics may vary a lot i don't know. So i can't say that the fade of the Beast of any kind is more consistent than the Avenger SS of any kind. More consistent is not the same as the absolute amount fade anyway.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby isobar » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:20 pm

I am kind of in the same range as you right now. I can hit about 350-400 with Blizzard discs, and about 350 with a Flash and Sword. I recently picked up a Lattitude 64 Saint, and I think this could fit the roll you are looking for. For me at about 350-400', It flies a lot like a roadrunner did for me when my power range was 300'. Max D shots, Straight tunnel shots and controllable Hyzers as long as I keep it to about 80% power.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby Blake_T » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:46 am

The avenger ss was basically a copy of the new beast mold. Flx plastic is the most inconsistent of them all. Both the avenger ss and beast pull in at -2 hss +2 lss. The beast is a touch longer, a touch faster, and a touch more predictable lss. My recommendations are based on getting significantly more consistent rather than "slightly" more consistent.

There's a huge demographic that shouldn't be throwing wraiths but discs like the avenger ss and beast are squirrely for. The original mold beast would have been a good choice for players in this range but since it doesn't exist anymore, there aren't a lot of options left overall.
In terms of more stable than the avenger ss but less stable than a wraith, it's a fairly short list and some models are dependent upon plastic.
Flash, wildcat, riptide (now discontinued), sl, surge ss, orc (in pro plastic), orion ls, striker... Are pretty much all that come to mind.

It's sort of like manufacturers think there's 2 kinds of players: those that should be throwing destroyers and those that should be throwing sidewinders, when in reality, most serious players fall somewhere in between.

If you want to see the valk stability vs the newer beast mold, watch someone throw them 500'. The beast will end up at least 50' farther to the right. This is about the same with a 20mph headwind.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby JR » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:44 am

That would be true for the so called new mold that came years ago. Things have changed about two years ago for some reason. Stabilization process? I have a flippy old mold Beast and several much more HSS ones from two years back to current. That don't flip at all in calm weather thrown to 400'. On occasion i've seen tight s-curves with minimal flip at 410-420' but can't say if it was from wind or not. Adding a few degrees of hyzer in a headwind with the Beast is not a problem. Of course faster or relatively less spin throwers get more turn than i do. I flip Valks thrown as hard as the Beast going flat without flipping to 400'.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:22 am

treehugger87 wrote:My throw has developed to the point that I'm turning over the discs in my bag that are understable such as an Avenger SS, which I use as my main driver right now. So I need suggestions for new discs to try out for my main driver or an idea of where to draw the line for overstability at this point. I'm not sure if I posted this in the right place, but any suggestions would be awesome.


When your power increases to the point where you need to step up in stability, a small step will likely work better than a large one. So abandoning your Avenger SS for a Predator(very overstable) won't help. Every disc of every run will be a little bit (sometimes a lot) different but if you picked up a Z Flash, a Z Surge SS and a Rogue you will find each of them slightly different and all very useful. One of these should do well to fit the slot of your primary driver and none of them is wide rimmed and so easier to control.

It seems to me there is a natural progression from understable to overstable then back to understable as a player's power and skills advance.

Most beginners gravitate to understable (as soon as they figure out there is such a thing as understable) discs as they are easier to control. With advances in power and skills a player learns how predictable and useful an overstable disc can be. If a player can get an overstable disc to fly straight initially then it will always hyzer out as it slows down.

Unfortunately the flight pattern of an overstable disc does not mirror all the various lines we need to hit. An understable disc can be manipulated (with adequate skill) to go in a whole variety of patterns, even a hyzer.

The shortest distance to a target is a straight line. The safest line to a target is often a straight line. The largest margin of error is often a straight line. The easiest way to throw a straight line is an slightly understable disc (understable for the individual player as stability is relative to the player, meaning that a disc which is overstable for you may be stable for me and understable for a big power thrower). While a perfectly straight line may be very difficult to achieve, the closer we can come to a straight line when needed, the better the result usually is.

The more experienced and more skilled the group of players the more they tend to rely on understable discs, especially on upshots or tunnels where the lines are the tightest.

I'm not sure it is possible or even advisable to try to leap frog the skill development progression from understable to overstable to understable discs. Yet it may be useful for a beginner to know the long term road map and keep practicing with understable discs.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby treehugger87 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:49 am

I didn't get a chance to try out or buy anything over the weekend, but as soon as I have free time/money I plan to go grab a Surge SS and give it a try. Mark, I do plan to continue throwing my understable stuff. I do more field work than round playing and I throw all my discs from the crazy flippy to the way too overstable every week to keep an idea of what they do as I progress. It's nice to have that turn over shot when I need it so I don't see the Avenger SS leaving my bag anytime soon. The Surge SS seems to be one of the consensus next step discs so I'm probably going to go with it as my next main driver. It's nice to hear from more experienced players on subjects like this. I really didn't want to start working with a disc out of my power range and screw up what little form I have so I thought I'd ask the experts :) . Once again, thanks for all the input everybody.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby slowarm » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:04 am

JR wrote:That would be true for the so called new mold that came years ago. Things have changed about two years ago for some reason. Stabilization process? I have a flippy old mold Beast and several much more HSS ones from two years back to current. That don't flip at all in calm weather thrown to 400'. On occasion i've seen tight s-curves with minimal flip at 410-420' but can't say if it was from wind or not. Adding a few degrees of hyzer in a headwind with the Beast is not a problem. Of course faster or relatively less spin throwers get more turn than i do. I flip Valks thrown as hard as the Beast going flat without flipping to 400'.


Hold on, JR. Thanks to your suggestion, I've been throwing "new mold" Beasts for a year or so. The best of them fly exactly the way you describe, but I've had a few flippy Beasts.

From my experience, it's not the plastic but the dome that makes the difference. I had a flat Champ and a almost flat Pro Beast, both of them turned too much for my liking. In the headwind they were turning into rollers, no matter how much hyzer was added. On the other hand, my favorite distance drivers are a Champ and a Pro Beast, both of them with a slight dome. They're just the ones you are talking about...although I don't toss 400'. (350' or a bit more is my max.)

To the original poster: I would too recommend the Saint. It's an excellent disc, but be warned. It has a (slightly) slanted rim. Some of us hate the +rim. Same with the faster Flow. The Beast is also fine, maybe an Orc too if you find the Beast too understable. And then of course there's the Wraith. If it starts with a fade too strong, don't worry, it won't stay that way for a long time (get a pro wraith...)
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby JR » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:11 am

I don't honestly see a large difference at all in the flipping and non flipping Beasts. Half a millimeter or so. About the same difference in PLH so it is hard to differentiate them by eye unless you can put a known comparison disc side by side with another disc.

New molds have been manufactured for years but the majority of the discs i've encountered at the shops since the last two years have become more overstable so i've sometimes called the later Beasts the third type of Beasts.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby treehugger87 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:15 am

slowarm, by your response I'm going to assume that the more of a dome the disc has the more overstable it is. It makes sense considering the echo star destroyer I have is way overstable and the dx destroyer I have isn't (the dx's dome is flatter). I've never really considered the individual make-up of a disc and have only considered the numbers given to that particular type of disc. Which is why I was a bit perplexed when I saw the varying numbers on the same discs in different plastic made by discraft, but I get it now. It seems like the molds/plastics and their varying stability are a bit harder to pick up on with Innova. Is this true or am I just out of the info loop?
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby Stringbean » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:53 pm

treehugger87 wrote:slowarm, by your response I'm going to assume that the more of a dome the disc has the more overstable it is. It makes sense considering the echo star destroyer I have is way overstable and the dx destroyer I have isn't (the dx's dome is flatter). I've never really considered the individual make-up of a disc and have only considered the numbers given to that particular type of disc. Which is why I was a bit perplexed when I saw the varying numbers on the same discs in different plastic made by discraft, but I get it now. It seems like the molds/plastics and their varying stability are a bit harder to pick up on with Innova. Is this true or am I just out of the info loop?


Generally, more dome creates more glide and fade. Read this thread... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25230
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby JR » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:50 am

That rule of thumb is too inaccurate these times. Flat Firebirds and Katanas fade harder than domier ones.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby slowarm » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:02 am

treehugger87 wrote:slowarm, by your response I'm going to assume that the more of a dome the disc has the more overstable it is. It makes sense considering the echo star destroyer I have is way overstable and the dx destroyer I have isn't (the dx's dome is flatter). I've never really considered the individual make-up of a disc and have only considered the numbers given to that particular type of disc. Which is why I was a bit perplexed when I saw the varying numbers on the same discs in different plastic made by discraft, but I get it now. It seems like the molds/plastics and their varying stability are a bit harder to pick up on with Innova. Is this true or am I just out of the info loop?


Unfortunately, it's not that easy. I was only talking about the eight or nine Beasts I've thrown. I've seen a pattern there. But my most overstable Wraith is a perfectly flat Star Wraith, for example. The rule of thumb exists, but as JR said, it's not very accurate. The discaholics here on DGR know much better than I about the factors that make a disc more/less stable, my only advice is: If you ever find a disc you like, try to find identical ones.
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Re: Moving from understable to overstable

Postby bfowler » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:49 pm

Been playing for 4 months and my first disc was an Avenger SS and in the last 3 weeks I suddenly started turning it over like crazy. Then I was hyzer flipping the crap out of it but now it's hard for me to even control that. I assumed that going to the full Avenger was the answer and it's been great for me. I've also been working in a Surge. I throw both about 300 feet but the surge is almost always for for another 10-50 feet of skip. I'm still not as dead straight with the Avenger as I was with the A-SS but then I traded a guy for a Stalker and that my go to straight disk right now. Heck, it could be my go to disk for everything except putting.
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