Backhand Drive Critique

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Backhand Drive Critique

Postby AbstractLogic » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:40 pm

I am one of the many stuck in the 300'-350' plateau and I feel that I still have a long way to go. I went out earlier today and did my best to perform typical drives for the best results. I included an example of my grip as well to see if that was hurting my distance. Any feedback is appreciated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOipl5BX ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby JR » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:33 am

You will get a lot more distance when you incorporate pause in the torso turning and get the elbow well closer to the target than the right side before you straighten the arm. Your hips don't turn much to the right of neutral. That reduces the power you generate. The grip is fine but just to make sure that you don't lose out from too loose a grip try to pinch harder with the index finger and the thumb against each other and moving the thumb toward the center of the disc in half inch increments. See my signature. Your movement is good for a mild anhyzer but you throw flat or annied.

Once you remain balanced and time things right turning the back and both heels at the target and planting the plant step with the heel pointing at the target adds distance -a lot. It is more likely to stumble etc. and to loose distance early on in the training for that. So keep on trying it. It can take months to perfect.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby iacas » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:42 am

JR wrote:You will get a lot more distance when you incorporate pause in the torso turning and get the elbow well closer to the target than the right side before you straighten the arm.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the pause is something that happens when the individual understands the sequencing and applies it correctly, not something you want to teach. It's the same, I'm starting to believe, as the basic kinematic sequencing of the golf swing. The hips will speed up fast, then slow, the shoulders will speed up second, then slow, the hands will speed up third, then slow, and lastly the clubhead will speed up, then slow (after impact). These all overlap, but we'd NEVER tell a golfer to "slow" something down and certainly not to pause it during the downswing.

I think you understand all of that, and I think you'll agree, but when you say things like "incorporate pause" then in my experience that's the wrong way to go about achieving it. If a slow-down happens because the arm is using the torso as a platform for its motion or whatever - if the slow-down is a result - then good. If it's caused by actually trying to "incorporate" it actively into the throwing motion, then that's been very bad in my experience.

So I don't really have any advice for the OP except to consider that some things are more "results" and some things you actively "cause," and this slight slowing down of the shoulder rotation is, IMO, quite possibly more of the former than the latter. If I was to be so bold as to recommend anything, it would be some back-hand hammer drills and the Bradley Walker video where he throws a disc into his neighbor's yard. :)

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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby turso » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:56 am

iacas wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that the pause is something that happens when the individual understands the sequencing and applies it correctly, not something you want to teach.



Yeah, I always wondered about the shoulder pause, and it was very poorly explained as it turns out in reality it isn't a pause. I tried couple of times consciously stopping the rotation and there's no effing way I could do that and throw properly with it so I just thought they were talking out of their ass. I think your assessment is correct.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby mikes919 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:28 am

Grip looks fine. Actually most of your "form" looks pretty good to me, you just aren't pushing your body forward very hard during the throw. You start your x-step forward and your body is accelerating, but then you slow all of your body's momentum to nothing as you bring the disc forward. You pretty much stop moving forward and just pivot around. So your setup and approach is putting you in the right position to throw, but you're just spinning your around and still primarily powering the disc with your arm. That makes it hard to really get your elbow forward and get a late "hit", since you're twisting so much instead of driving forward in a straight line towards the target.

Look at how upright and balanced you are on the follow-through. You should be driving forward, accelerating your body and elbow straight towards the target from your reachback. Then you'll be putting all that energy into the throw. I'm almost falling forwards and my whole body comes off the front of the teepad when I throw for distance, because I'm putting my weight into the throw. It will feel less controlled at first but you'll get it.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby JR » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:11 am

turso wrote:
iacas wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that the pause is something that happens when the individual understands the sequencing and applies it correctly, not something you want to teach.



Yeah, I always wondered about the shoulder pause, and it was very poorly explained as it turns out in reality it isn't a pause. I tried couple of times consciously stopping the rotation and there's no effing way I could do that and throw properly with it so I just thought they were talking out of their ass. I think your assessment is correct.


I can consciously stop the whole body from the legs to the head if i need but that is not the point.

iacas it is all about the kinetic chain and the sequencing of it you're right. Another way that could be tried to explain the pause is to watch out for pivoting with the right leg from the plant to the rip. AKA spinning out with the right leg. You and a disc golf throw are not dreidels or however you spell that. The foot pivot should happen later not starting instantly when the toe touches the ground.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby iacas » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:34 am

JR wrote:I can consciously stop the whole body from the legs to the head if i need but that is not the point.

iacas it is all about the kinetic chain and the sequencing of it you're right. Another way that could be tried to explain the pause is to watch out for pivoting with the right leg from the plant to the rip. AKA spinning out with the right leg. You and a disc golf throw are not dreidels or however you spell that. The foot pivot should happen later not starting instantly when the toe touches the ground.

That's still beside the point. I'll keep this short because it's kind of OT for this thread, but teaching a result rather than a cause is, in my experience, not the way to go. Results can illustrate the root cause, but you're better off attacking the root cause.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby cubeofsoup » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:49 am

turso wrote:
iacas wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that the pause is something that happens when the individual understands the sequencing and applies it correctly, not something you want to teach.



Yeah, I always wondered about the shoulder pause, and it was very poorly explained as it turns out in reality it isn't a pause. I tried couple of times consciously stopping the rotation and there's no effing way I could do that and throw properly with it so I just thought they were talking out of their ass. I think your assessment is correct.


To me the pause is more the arm/elbow/hand unit moving faster than the shoulders, causing the shoulders to slow in relation to the path of the disc.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby cubeofsoup » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:24 am

Compare the posture of Emac and Schusterick to you. They create a power pocket for the disc to pass through, allowing them to transmit all of their momentum through the disc. Also they keep their weight more forward and over the disc allowing them to throw nose down.


With your posture so upright you are essentially spinning out and not getting the bulk of your weight behind the throw, also causing nose up. If you watch Emac frame by frame (pause the video then use the arrow keys to advance) You can see he reaches back and begins making his plant step. THEN the key...he BRACES through his right side/hip/knee. There are 3 frames around 10-11 seconds into the video where he is fully reached back and stepping. As he steps his entire shoulder and side make a shift to brace his weight and create a pivot point about the right heel. Once he is fulled braced, the FIRST movement is his elbow driving forward. Once he gets his elbow forward and the disc is approaching his left peck, it's time to unload nice and smooth "pound the hammer". Notice how his lower body is balanced and relatively quiet. Not a huge step or forward motion. All of his momentum went into the disc because he was smooth and braced so well.

Now for Schusterick:
Image
Notice how much more his elbow/arm gets forward than his shoulders. He is a great example of the "closed shoulder snap drill" in practice.

Things you can work on:
Drive with the elbow.
Weight forward, slightly less upright posture

(anyone if I am misleading him please yell at me)
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby AbstractLogic » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:27 pm

I appreciate all of the input, especially the tips from cubeofsoup. I was out last night trying to work on not "rounding" the disc and pulling it on a straight line just standing still and found difficulty during the right pec area keeping the disc on the line. Would the posture be to blame for this?

I cross posted this on DGCR to get some input and someone posted these pics which may prove helpful to anyone still interested in helping.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby cubeofsoup » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:40 pm

Images don't work for me :(
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby AbstractLogic » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:00 pm

Image

Image

Image


here ya go man.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby JR » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:55 am

iacas wrote:
JR wrote:I can consciously stop the whole body from the legs to the head if i need but that is not the point.

iacas it is all about the kinetic chain and the sequencing of it you're right. Another way that could be tried to explain the pause is to watch out for pivoting with the right leg from the plant to the rip. AKA spinning out with the right leg. You and a disc golf throw are not dreidels or however you spell that. The foot pivot should happen later not starting instantly when the toe touches the ground.

That's still beside the point. I'll keep this short because it's kind of OT for this thread, but teaching a result rather than a cause is, in my experience, not the way to go. Results can illustrate the root cause, but you're better off attacking the root cause.


Spinning out with the right leg is the root cause to not having a pause like the original poster did.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby JR » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:04 am

Bracing is something i have little experience of trying to baby my injuries but it is necessary for the best possible results. Posture is not the cause timing is. Think of a figure skater doing a pirouette. They have the ankles together for the fastest rotation and they are upright. If they tilted the skate to ice contact probably wouldn't allow as quick a pivot but rather a falling down. Being upright is good and weight shifting forward at the hit is usable flight shaping for keeping the disc low to fly under branches. Not trying too hard mentally often helps in avoiding pushing too early with the left leg, twisting the hips and turning the shoulders ahead of time. When you overcommit you often grit the teeth and tense up in the throat area. If you notice any of those stop the throw and yawn deeply inhaling and exhaling and try again concentrating on being loose and quick only in the elbow straightening period. Easy does it.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Backhand Drive Critique

Postby cubeofsoup » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:17 am

To sum it up briefly, your weight is too far back and your hips and shoulders are opening too fast. All the pictures you posted further prove that.
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