## Hammer vs. the Rail

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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### Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

JR wrote:You seem to have misconceptions here and i'l reply to them properly after i've woken up i'm going to sleep now.

You wrote an unclear paragraph so I asked for clarification.

JR wrote:Stand with as much body area as possible touching a wall behind you. Back, shoulders, elbows and the back of the hand touching the wall. Then measure the distances again with the arms spread as far apart as possible then using the left arm measure the right side to index finger distance. Your finger tip to finger tip measurements sound correct but the right side to the finger tip doesn't. My spine to middle finger tip distance is 33". That means that that my spine to arm pit distance is 33-26,5 inches. I tried to give more than enough data and still something misfired for you so i'd say i was not wrong in trying to give a lot of data because something did not carry through. My measurement tape has both inches and centimeters and both give perfectly realistic results.

I measured that way. I'm still taller and have longer arms than you.

All you need to do, all I've asked you to do three times now is clarify when the 15" measurements are taken.

I suspect that you're measuring 15" from the FRONT at the START of the throwing motion and 15" from the BACK at the release point (i.e. disc travel is about the width of the disc in this motion), because if 15" from the BACK of the disc is your START point, I don't think for one second you can throw 110' that way.
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

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iacas
Tree Magnet

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### Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Why does the time of the answer matter to you? Patience. I'm not here all the time i have other things to do in life you know like sleeping. Typing takes time.

Let's see if you can believe this which weighs less and is more aerodynamic a disc or a man?

Short movement mandates a great acceleration. Bruce said that he was an inch away with his fist from the poor sod being struck. One inch is pretty late for a throwing motion to begin. Late acceleration is also good for the snap in disc golf. I had a little more room to move the arm movement than Bruce but not seeing myself on video i can't tell if i shifted my body weight back to front like Bruce did. From the legs mostly. I did not feel that in that throw but of course could have moved.

Because a disc golf arm swing and follow thorugh is left to right movement unlike that back to front punch i did shift the arm weight into a right moving follow through. I tried to use the legs, hips and the shoulders just i like i would in a normal throw. I just could not feel much at all coming from there for such a short movement. So i too had weight shifting only relevant to a throw not a punch.

Now for the meat: Where exactly did you measure from? I measured from the rib in my arm pit between the muscles with an extended arm. Not the pectoral muscle upper joint to the disc because that would give very different and shorter results based on how muscular different people are. That could explain how you got such a short measurement result despite having 4" larger arm span than i do. Is this the case?

I measured 15 inches from the rib that was closest to the bottom of by arm extended to the side with a putter in my hand holding a tape measure that i held with my index finger against the disc and pulled the measure straight with my left hand pushing the tape against the rib in the bottom of the arm pit. When i was measuring the front of the disc in the extended arm being 15" away from the rib in the arm pit. What kind of arm pit center rib to index finger distance you have? Do the numbers make sense now? Or do i have to clarify more if the issue is something else. Without seeing how you measured yourself it is difficult to diagnose how you got so much shorter measurement than i did seeing in your videos that you are normally shaped and not a T Rex that was a joke that i thought was obvious to anyone (iacas PM'd me).

Believe this or not: I measured the rear of the disc being fifteen inches from the rib with the arm extended and i threw from there. So i calculated like this: My arm is 26.5 inches from the rib to the index finger outer joint holding the rim of the disc. I did not calculate the disc wing in front of the rim. Because the disc is about 8" from the back outer edge to the rim where the outer section of my index finger squeezes the rim i got: Rib to rear of the disc 15"+8" of disc equals 23". Approximation of the disc size. With measurement inaccuracy thrown in. So the approximate arm movement distance was index finger outer joint being under the lowest part of the disc to the rib being 26.5" minus the approximate 23" of the rib to index finger outer joint plus disc size equals roughly 3.5" of arm movement for the 110' throw. Correct?

Since my measurement skills were doubted (what? come on give me some credit for having even that simple skill) i was throwing on a soccer field. By regulation the goal line to the free kick area line it is 16 meters. If i recall the correct terminology. I've measured my shoe length so i walked with the front of the shoe touching the rear of the other shoe from that 16 meters forward and yes i've tape measured the 16 meters before. So not exact to to millionth of an inch but it gives the proper magnitude. because soccer allows different field lengths the goal line to center line distance varies and the field i was on is reported by staff to be 105 meters from goal post to goal post so the halfway mark is at 52.5 meters. I've verified the length of the field from an aerial photo of the field on maps.bing.com and maps.google.com is in agreement. I measured with their rulers and a known object of over 200' in length within the picture. I got the exact size of that building from googling it and it is in perfect agreement with the ruler on both sites. Good enough for nit picking and doubting?

There is a difference between a doubting Thomas and a through researcher and the latter verifies the methods and measurements before making conclusions. Like doubting the word of another when the claim is not outrageous. Even though to you it seems to be. I suspect that there are plenty of things in the universe that blows the minds of everyone like free divers holding their breath for 13 minutes without getting brain damage when 5 minutes of oxygen deprivation is normally producing brain damage. They just regulate their super conditioned bodies so that their brain gets enough oxygen for long enough. 13 minutes without breathing sounds to comply to theme of a person making an outrageous claim needing to prove his statement. Something that is required in scientific research. On that issue proof was in the diver and minds are blown. Contrast the doubting Thomas to the people who have seen 10+ face under water results without a breathing apparatus to the wild claim of me not measuring accurately. Don't you think that is a bit insulting to my intelligence? It is not my fault that your current level of understanding is not enough to appreciate that there are much farther snapping people than i am and that 110' 3 and change inches arm movement must have had help from the lower body and be perfectly obtainable because i'm nowhere near a top athlete physically. In fact i'm injured for life in the throwing arm and the back sapping my power which is not a stuff of legend sadly. Consider your mind blown once you see the results. 800' drives are much more outlandish than 110' from a little over 3" arm movement. I can't imagine i'd ever throw 110' with moving the arm alone. Even though i did not feel like i moved with the lower body i tried to. And judging by the distance i must have and i'm certain that most of the distance came not from the arm movement but the legs, hips and the shoulders moving during that 3"+ that i had the disc in my hand. I never meant to claim that the 3" was from the arm alone. Not being able to feel the lower body move concentrating on guiding the muscles to fire as quickly as possible most likely robbed all the brain processing power so i did not become consciously aware of the work done by the rest of the body.

I find it funny that my measurements of both my body proportions (yahoos that is your cue to dirty jokes) and throwing distances are being questioned. Without a real reason. How far do you think a trained athlete and a super fast guy like Bruce would throw a putter with about three inches of arm movement? More than i can because i'm not in his shape. Are you aware that with practice a part of the fast muscle cells can be converted to become superfast? Give me some credit i've trained for a decade. Also there is a world of difference in power generation and acceleration of the arm between a loose and a stiff arm. Bruce Lee said in an interview that the less he tries the harder he punches. My interpretation of that sentence is that he kept his muscles as loose as possible before and during the punch so i've applied that to all disc golf throwing not just these snap drills. Throw like you train or the drills have been wasted at least partially. And i go for a late acceleration in my drives.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
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### Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

I don't think your feel is as real as you want to believe it to be.

This doesn't feel like it's particularly on topic, so I've kept this reply short and am done asking for clarification.
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet

Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

### Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Err i wrote that i think that the data suggests that i did not feel the work that the legs and the torso did in the 110' throw. I cannot throw nearly as far as that with the arm alone everything else pinned into place. I once forehanded a Rhyno with a slight hyzer to 60' holding the right elbow with the left not moving anything else than the wrist and the fingers. I'm pretty sure the right arm still moved half an inch to an inch despite trying not to move the arm. I watched my arm and turning the head down and right might have contributed to the difficulty of getting a flat flight. I did a dozen or so throws. Because i move the wrist much faster FH than BH i throw less with the wrist only or a 3" movement. So no way can i throw 110' without the lower body. And not feeling it does not mean that it doesn't ad a lot of distance. I never claimed that according to my memory. If i did i should not have. I do not want my feeling of the body to be anything so please don't put thoughts into my head that aren't there.

Sure i would not mind having a better body awareness because it would help in diagnosing an errant throw and concentrating avoiding the same mistake in the next throw but it is not mandatory. Nor realistic so i'm not beat up about it. It is the same for everyone. Humans as a species share a too slow brain for many complex tasks to be performed in real time.

I hope the previous post clarified enough for you and that soon you'll outthrow me with late acceleration only and applying that to normal drives too.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia

Posts: 11711
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level

### Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

I haven't posted my short throw results lately because i messed up the execution. I used my cell phone in the off arm for videoing which can't help the throw but it was not the issue. I deleted plenty of videos immediately after the throw because i wasn't getting the kind of results i liked. At first i threw to 50' tops with about 3" of arm movement calculated from the arm being moved back 3" from pointing straight forward. Note that because i pushed the left leg from a slight knee bend to straight the arm moved more than that 3" forward. How much i can't say and there is one rub why i didn't post the videos. The video needs to be taken from the side to show all that is going on not just the arm like my cell phone vids do.

Later i bent the left knee more trying to add more power generation and that lead to a new problem. Starting from a standing still deep knee bend is way different to a dynamic bending and straightening of the left knee. I deleted some long ass throws because of the inability to always keep the bending/straightening cycle small enough to be golfably consistent even in the trickiest ground conditions. Which is my yardstick. Another necessary requirement is standardization of the form so that others can compare their results. There is little use in having people trying to get 110' with 3" long wrist flick alone. At least if they think a gimp can do so should i and then they waste their time trying to achieve that. Provided the training doesn't produce good results to their throwing or other life. Which it should.

I had some failures to start from a still deeply bent left knee. I realized that there was my largest mistake. A small not so deep bend and immediate push off of the leg produced well over 50' throws i'd say between 70-80'. A really messed up execution pushed the disc well past 110' and i didn't measure those but it looked more like 140'. To get there i quickly bent the left leg to around 70 degree knee angle and immediately upon reaching the largest bending angle plyometrically pushed off of the leg for a huge increase in the power generation.

So exactly specifying what was done makes all the difference in the world to the distance achieved. No wonder iacas did not believe the 110' result. I can only get half of that when i try not to move plyometrically only starting from a static slight knee bend.

Because i knew my execution was off i have not taken the time to even download the vids to my computer. I just wanted to clarify the situation. A proper video needs HD filming from far off to the side placed camera that shows the entire flight of the disc to illustrate the distance. We have a lot of snow on the ground now so no video for a long time because our winter is long.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia

Posts: 11711
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level