Amendment 64 Initiative 502

[Parks]

Bitches.

[JR]

Studies themselves can be misleading. The Ronald Reagan study with monkeys and marijuana was very misleading. They gave every monkey 30 joints of marijuana through a gas mask at one time. This took over 5 minutes well when you cut oxygen off for more than about 4 minutes brain cells start to die because your suffocating that individual. Now wonder some monkeys died, they were suffocating them, and quite frankly who can smoke 30 joints in a little over 5 minutes.

I didn't cite that study. The studies that have been conducted reasonably do not favor THC. It's very simple.

Truth be told I haven't done the studies (of my own) to see whether I support legalization, but I know the studies about THC/marijuana itself and there's no way at all you can say pot is "way better than alcohol" or whatever kind of blather you want to try to spin. It doesn't help your case that someone can enjoy a glass of wine at a dinner party without giving those near him a contact high.

On that line of thought of which of the two poisons is more dangerous it is somewhat odd line of reasoning more usable for the military trying to kill people. Which is more effective nuking of gassing and if gassing VX or mustard gas is the logical line of thinking then. Not how you harm yourself the most efficiently or inefficiently. It is poison still so the real question is whether to consume it or not, why and if you use how and for what. Many legal medicines have side effects and that is the same for MJ and it is a viable treatment method to pains legal in many places as long as it is prescribed by a doctor to a real diagnosed medical problem. I have no problem whatsoever doctors prescribing medication including MJ to real problems.

Messing up your head is another matter and you don't even need chemicals to that or you can get them for free licking a toad or whatever. I'm not happy about that but it is better than funding organized crime which gives incentive to gangs etc. to start turf wars for profit in which innocents get killed and wounded and property wrecked. So there is that incentive for the people to limit spreading the ill effects beyond medical issues of digesting harmful substances. Most get killed by a bullet much more likely than from alcohol or MJ if you get hit by a bullet. And that is just one method of criminals hurting people so even if it might be rare in many places it is a real problem in some places. There is a drug war going on right now and nations have fought over drugs in the 19th century. One could argue that Iraq was invaded for oil and Afghanistan for poppies. Securing supply and making the profits yourself instead of the locals. People make money oil and poppies and economists in the 19th century described what a capitalist is willing to do for x amount of profit. Some oil companies tripled their stock worth within two years of the occupation of Iraq by a country lead by a president whose family and he himself was in oil business. Interestingly triple profit was described in the 19th century to be the limit where a capitalist would do anything to get that return on investment. Hmm. Coincidence? If it is it is ironic. Or the scientist found out something telling of people and their behavior and the factors that led to the usual numbers of expected profits and what people are wiling to do to obtain it. People ingesting different harmful substance for non medical issues might calculate some return from that but there are probably a lot of different reasons to consume anything.

[Ryen91]

JR, You bring up the biggest point in why it needs to be legalized, Organized Crime. There is something wrong when The leaders of the criminal world do not want this to be legalized, it is because of how much money they make pushing the plant illegally. By legalizing Marijuana your not only hurting the organized crime world but you will also be saving billions of dollars with the fight against drugs. If everyone with just a marijuana charge was released from prison, there would be jails shutting down because of how many people that would be released, saving the government and the tax payers money that we could put toward our national debt.

[Pwingles]

Lol, yep, that surplus will go directly to the national debt...

[pietrocrespi]

Ryen is naturally athletic.

[jsun3thousand]

now we're cooking with gas!

[Ryen91]

Well Im not saying the governement would actually put it toward our national debt, but it should be. What does me being naturally athletic have to do with anything

[jsun3thousand]

being naturally athletic has everything to do with it. do you workout?

[Ryen91]

I really don't want to entertain this cause I know at some point somebody is setting me up so they can get another few laughs...Jsun3thousand I'm really not mad for all the shit I've been getting, I quite frankly deserved it, but I would really appreciate it if we stopped attacking me for a few posts and let me catch a breather.

[Frank Delicious]

or at least try to troll him with something that isn't a played-out inside joke

[JR]

I feel this is a side step to the DGCR thread because there have been no new posts in there for days Wonder if criminals would try to get their foot in medical MJ profits, if they haven't already, if MJ would be legalized?

[jsun3thousand]

Messing up your head is another matter and you don't even need chemicals to that or you can get them for free licking a toad or whatever. I'm not happy about that but it is better than funding organized crime which gives incentive to gangs etc. to start turf wars for profit in which innocents get killed and wounded and property wrecked. So there is that incentive for the people to limit spreading the ill effects beyond medical issues of digesting harmful substances. 1 Most get killed by a bullet much more likely than from alcohol or MJ if you get hit by a bullet. And that is just one method of criminals hurting people so even if it might be rare in many places it is a real problem in some places. There is a drug war going on right now and nations have fought over drugs in the 19th century. One could argue that Iraq was invaded for oil and 2 Afghanistan for poppies. Securing supply and making the profits yourself instead of the locals. People make money oil and poppies and economists in the 19th century described what a capitalist is willing to do for x amount of profit. Some oil companies tripled their stock worth within two years of the occupation of Iraq by a country lead by a president whose family and he himself was in oil business. Interestingly triple profit was described in the 19th century to be the limit where a capitalist would do anything to get that return on investment. Hmm. Coincidence? If it is it is ironic. Or the scientist found out something telling of people and their behavior and the factors that led to the usual numbers of expected profits and what people are wiling to do to obtain it. People ingesting different harmful substance for non medical issues might calculate some return from that but there are probably a lot of different reasons to consume anything.

i'll play, jr. you're losing it a little. i'm surprised you didn't take the opportunity to pepper your rant with nazi analogies.

1) you're arguing a person getting shot has a higher probability of dying than from using an undetermined amount of alcohol or marijuana? the probability of dying from being hit by a metal projectile traveling at speeds over 1200 mph fired from a weapon designed to maximize the accuracy of the user cannot be compared to probability of dying from the unspecified use of alcohol or marijuana. outside the fact there are millions of variables that go into the probability of dying from being shot, you're comparing the probability of a person ideally using a weapon designed to kill another person in a single use while guaranteeing their own life to dying from the variable negative biological affects and social consequences of the personal consumption of alcohol or marijuana. the only reasonable way to compare the two is a 100% guaranteed kill shot and being able consume enough alcohol or marijuana to shutdown your brain, body, and central nervous system down before it is able to instinctively react to being poisoned. that's the only way to compare the probability you have created is to have the same outcome occur, death. it's impossible to compare the probability of getting shot which ranges from a shooter determined to kill you at execution style to being grazed and the probability of dying from using marijuana or alcohol which is completely dependent on biology and context. you can have one drink and die from an accident or be a chronic alcoholic with what is medically consider a lethal BAC of .627 and survive. http://iowacity.patch.com/articles/poli ... ol-content or steal a van and pass out safely on the highway with a BAC of .7 http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/articl ... 03286.html

2) it is impossible to argue the united states invaded afghanistan to control the country's ability to grow poppies for the production of heroin as a source of profit. there is no evidence that america cares about controlling poppy production in afghanistan. tony blair claimed that he supported the U.S invasion of afganistan as means of stopping the flow afghan heroin into england. afghan heroin, depending on the source and the year, accounts for 85-99% of the heroin in england. after the soviet union pulled out of afghanistan, the U.S, which had been ignoring the poppy and opium production in the country and pakistan, stopped funding the afghanistan resistance through aid to pakistain. a struggle for control of afghanistan and the capital of kabul occurred among leaders of the mujaheddin and a civil war broke out dividing the country. former mujaheddin leaders, now dependent of poppy production for money, battled for control of the country and its poppy production.

financed by pakistain, the taliban lead by mullah mohar seized control of afghanistan through promising the end of opium corruption to the public and the establishment of shari law, while he promised local tribal leaders he would not stop poppy production. in 1996, oasam bin laden flew to afghanistan and aligned himself and al qaeda with the taliban leaders. bin laden helped finance the taliban's control of afganistian. in 1997, in order to gain global legitimacy and to seek relief from UN sanctions for poppy production, the taliban declared to the international community that afghanistan was ruled by shari law and prohibited poppy farming. instead of fighting with tribal leaders that grew poppy and to fiance the country, the taliban taxed all farmers 10% and each shipment from a farm for refinement 20% under shira law. the formation of the federally administered tribal areas of pakistain pushed morphine refining plants into southern afghanistan creating a new source of revenue for the taliban. by 1999, the taliban controlled 99% of afghanistan and which produced 75% of the worlds poppy supply for heroin. the taliban placed a $50 a kilo tax on morphine exported and $75 tax on heroin exported from the country. haji bashar noorzai, a heroin smuggler serving a life sentence in the united states, forged a deal with the taliban to pay $230 for each kilo of heroin exported through the state's two owned airports. in 1999, after indicting bin landen for his role in the 1998 bombing of three US embassies in east africa, the US and the UN sanctioned the taliban with united nations security council resolution 1267 demanding the taliban to turn over bin landen and close all terrorist bases. in 2000, the UN sanctioned the taliban by forbidding their state run airline to travel because of its suspected use in the transportation of terrorists, weapons, and heroin. the U.S government, on 30 occasions between 1996-2000 contacted taliban leaders to exile bin laden and al qaeda.

after extensive pressure and threat of greater sanctions, the UN along with muslim legal experts from pakistan convinced mullah mohar to stop all poppy farming in july 2000. in 2001 taliban had almost eliminated all poppy farming in afghanistan. the the un-affiliated narcotics control board estimated that afghan's major producers, taliban officials, al qaeda, and their distribution networks had stocked piled enough opium and heroin to meet demand for the next four years. despite the complete stoppage of poppy production, the taliban continued collect taxes from afghanistan's refinement factories that remained in operation and made no effort to stop the exportation of heroin. the international price for a kilo of herion remained stable until the attacks of 9/11. UN officials estimated the wholesale value of opium and heroin in possession of the taliban, al qaeda, and major suppliers at 1 billion dollars in pakistan at the time of the 9/11 attacks. after the attacks 9/11, DEA records show export the price of heroin at an all time high of 731 a kilo. with the looming U.S invasion, the export price of a kilo dropped to 95 dollars as suppliers liquidated. http://www.usip.org/files/resources/taliban_opium_1.pdf


on october 7, 2001, the u.s carried out air attacks against strategic targets to kill high ranking taliban and al qaeda members and capture osama bin laden. many high ranking taliban officials fled to pakistan. 5 days after the first air attacks, U.S./NATO forces and the northern alliance had captured kabul. despite the occupation of kabul, the taliban returned to controlling poppy production. after the u.s invasion, poppy production quickly returned and afghanistan became the world's number producer again. "the un international narcotics control board (incb) report, released on 26 february 2003, said that afghanistan produced 3,400 tonnes last year, up from 185 tonnes in 2001. while the US report praised US-backed afghan president hamid karzai for the measures he has introduced to cut heroin production, the UN report said his two executive orders had no practical impact." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2814861.stm. In 2003 afghan poppy production had returned to the level of the year before the ban. in 2004, afghanistan farmers grew more poppy than it had in the last ten years. production dropped slightly in 2005 to 3800 tons. this is from a 2008 report of on taliban and their role in heroin production "the smugglers claimed they are "untouchable" because their bosses include cabinet-level officials in the government. british officials suspect senior government insiders are involved in the drugs trade, but they have struggled to get the support from mr karzai, or the evidence, to arrest them." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 17230.html obama phased out poppy eradication efforts in 2009 and the america-russia joint task force on controlling opium refinement into heroin has had little success because the afghan military tips off the refinement facilities ahead of time. afghanistan will be in charge of its own security in 2014 and it's still the worlds leader in opium production?

how is the almost 4 trillion dollar invasion of afghanistan about controlling poppy production for profit?

[Jesse B 707]

I only read the last sentence but yeah...if it were about controlling anything it would be about the massive deposits of rare minerals under their soil as well as oil distribution channels...not fucking poppies

[JR]

Controlling or securing supply? I'm thinking of securing and skimming off the top. So are you aware that the CIA has been accused of being involved in the drug business for half a century? Those articles talk of the Taliban but what of the US involvement? I'm sure there would be someone who took offense to the number and different ways of misspelling of the holy texts to some that are known as the sharia law. What else did those articles get wrong?

I heard that now there is more poppy production in Afghanistan than ever. Nice for those involved in cashing in on the business. If the US wanted to stop the flow of drugs from Afghanistan they do control the place enough to put no exit orders in there to people and goods unless inspected by the army. And bombing everyone that tries to exit outside of the US controls. Predators are patrolling everywhere so while it is impossible to stop people breaking the embargo it would be fairly deadly to try and at least some of the smugglers would be killed and others dissuaded from even trying. The real thing that the coalition could do in Afghanistan any day is to burn the poppy fields. It is not hard in a hot dry country. Since the easy way out has not been taken what does that tell of the real intentions of the coalition or the US? Securing profits? Of whom? Some Afghans for sure but how about people in charge in the US too?

These days with fewer ground troops and more interference from the Afghan government protecting the drug trade it is not as easy to burn the poppy fields. It is hard to believe that there is no cooperation between Afghan drug manufacturers and whomever in the US that makes it possible to grow the poppies and import drugs to the west. If agent orange was sprayed to large parts of Vietnam in the 1960s how come the same cannot be done in Afghanistan to poppy fields where the worst opposition to flying is bullets? In Vietnam they had Soviet and Vietnamese flown air forces in fighters, radar and communications plus control supporting radar operated anti aircraft artillery and surface to air missiles on top of bullets? Hello? Does that make you think?

Jesse the drug business is huge and it requires no investments because it operates already. Oil and mining would need a lot of investments to set up and how do you run them around that lot? The Afghans do great job of producing poppies in larger quantities now than ever before in history. They have turf wars but every one in their drug business keeps on producing that shit no matter who is in charge. I'm not so sure that they would do that in oil and mining business. After all that would not be fighting against the great satan the west. Killing infidels. Oil and mining products would be serving the infidels making them richer. Poppies are a lethal weapon killing the unfaithful so that is a great motivation to those yahoos besides money and power plus the off sense of security that the weapons purchased with drug money buy.

Mining and oil pipe lines? Are you kidding? Do you know what happens around oil pipe lines around more civilized and less armed peoples than Afghanistan? Good luck running a business in that cess pit. There are countless criminal gangs and too many terrorist organizations around for even the foreign armies to cope with properly so how on earth would a mine or even harder an oil pipe line be protected? In Nigeria people pick axe the pipe lines and hundreds die each year in the resulting explosions and a lot of oil is spilled to the ground to wipe out villages because the soil is so contaminated that they can't grow their food. Nigerians do that because they are poor. The Afghans are that too plus a lot of things.

If you look at the Caucasus oil pipe lines they get blown up by local guerillas that aren't as numerous, silly and well armed and have less armed opposition from governments. Afghanistan is hell mostly made by the locals. It is tough to find a more stupid people. I can't think of any now. They sure fuck each other up and do their worst to stay stupid as shit acting in some respects less wisely than most animals. Meaning survival instinct in animals works better than many things that the Afghans do. I pity them but i also pity the world because there are such fools (on average not every individual of course) around because they are a threat to everyone but keep in mind the people are often better than those in charge put killers in charge and shit happens. I mean Afghans as a nation are an immediate threat to your personal survival because they have all sorts of crazy murderous crews leading different parts of the country and the official government are pretty odd too pissing on the US government when it is the US that put them in charge. What does that tell of the US then? If Afghan government thanks by laughing at the face of their benefactors. The Afghans with the current leaderships in plural are just as lethal to each other as they are to everyone else on the planet -our protection is distance and the fact that they are in each others throats so much time that they aren't always attacking others. You would not want them to be your neighbors. Your life expectancy would drop dramatically. They don't like leaving pale faces alive. Or much we do in the west. They might shoot if you look at them wrong. That could be the same in the worst gang territories at times in the US too but it is much more common over there.

An Afghan said in an interview about the occupation that it has destroyed the opportunities to work in many traditional occupations so you either starve to death or get into crime and most likely to the drug business. Just to survive. To me it sounds like a short life expectancy anyway in that viper's nest. So it is theoretically possible that with so many desperate people drugs could be smuggled to the west without western government involvement but that does not address the matter of cutting off the drug raw material supply by burning or poisoning from the air. So what gives? There is certainly a lack of will to stop the drug production. I don't know how many crops you need to destroy to cripple the drug industry and how many harvests per year the Afghans get and what their glass house building chances are after aerial annihilation of the poppy fields. Because the occupying forces don't have a free reign everywhere sending in ground troops to locate and torch the glass houses won't be easy. And i no data on possible underground facilities. That would certainly hamper aerial extinction of the poppies. Still doing large scale damage is possible. And i have not heard of any attempts to do that. It would make life for the Afghans very hard if many people lost their income from the drug trade. There are no easy simple answers to this octopus like multiple facet problem. Keeping the status quo is not good either.

[Ryen91]