Hammerpound Revisited

[soupdeluxe]

Hello
So about a month ago Blake was nice enough to talk to me personally regarding my throw. I have been on a "rail" kick when it comes to my throw ever since he posted the diagram. We talked a bit about the rail and then he asked how the "hammer pound" worked for me. I felt a little like a kid that had not done his homework and was facing a pop quiz. I did do the hammer drills quite a bit at first but have neglected it until the last month. Problem was I could feel the weight shift when doing this forehand quite easily. When it came to the backhand I could feel it in the vertical drill with gravity on my side. When I went horizontal with it not so much.
The last 4 weeks I have put the rail on the back burner and worked on the hammer pound. I started at the beginning, forehand easy, backhand again not so much. I decided to make the weight more obvious and duct taped 3 quarters to the disc I was using. This let me feel the weight shift and let me know about at what position it should occur. As I got the hang of it I would rotate the weight into my hand so it had less of an effect on the weight shift. I can now do this with just the disc. I find that using a driver for this drill easier to feel than the rocs and xds I was using with the rail.
A couple of things that held me back.
1. I was not letting the disc drop straight down doing the backhand drill vertically. I was keeping my elbow in place and letting my forearm swing out. When I let it fall straight down I get a much stronger feeling pound.
2. I was letting the disc pivot around my fingers at weight shift instead of letting it slam open my wrist first. This was the whole point of the drill and I was missing it. Now its wrist slammed open and then rip out from fingers.
I notice when I do the drill the disc puts allot of pressure on the side of my ring and middle fingers. This makes sense since I am only allowing it to slam my wrist open. When I throw though I feel the disc coming off those same fingers. They tingle after a throw session. I am wondering if my index is coming off at the same time as my middle?
Doing field work I worked on the following things.
Keeping the handle on line with direction of pull
2 finger grip at first
Throwing short 150 feet
Quiet lower body
Gliding in to the pound
Started out pretty rough but have gotten much better. I now am using a power grip, gliding in and pounding the hammer. I find the gliding in to be very important and I still struggle with this from my strong arming days. The timing of when to pound is tough as well. When I get these two things right I am tossing 260-280 with virtually no effort. I am currently trying to add longer motions to my throw without screwing up what I have learned.
Another cool thing with the hammer pound is if I glide in, weight shifts and wrist slams open my hand goes from 9 to 3 o clock for free. I think Blake says he holds on till 4-4:30 so I only need to hang on a little longer and i'm there.
Anyway, I know allot of this is redundant but I hope it might help. I find that revisiting the various drills has helped me quite a bit.
Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving
SD

[JR]

i think you got your order of events correct this time AKA the kinetic chain. There is a well beyond 500' thrower here that usually rips off of his middle finger. Tingling often indicates a slipped throw. Usual diagnostics are to throw slower or grip harder or both.

[Parks]

I think a lot of this post really nails what a lot of people are missing in the hammer drills, and it also applies to the rail. Great description.

Also, if your fingers are tingling then that is a bad thing. There is something in your timing or where your weight is positioned that is causing grip lock. If you're just getting a tingle then its probably minor, but it can really hurt and be nasty if you get it any worse.

[JR]

I don't grip lock often but i don't recall tingling ever but tingling is very common in slips.

[iacas]

I don't grip lock often but i don't recall tingling ever but tingling is very common in slips.

Why?

If the disc is ripping from your hands in a full hit, doesn't that imply friction and thus the possibility of tingling? Is that even the cause of tingling, or is it something else, like a late re-gripping in an attempt to thwart the slip?

Does tingling always imply a slip? Does it always imply that it wasn't a full hit or maybe even a half hit?

Seriously asking.

[JR]

I'm glad you asked because your post stirred up a memory. Once my distance record was made when the automated reaction to "resisting dropping something onto your foot" (unscientific name) reaction kicked in and my index finger pinched harder than i can command consciously. Normally people use only a fraction of their muscle power so it takes the unconscious to fetch the power reserves. I gripped so hard that the disc ripped on the intended line and didn't slip or grip lock put the rim to wing corner dug into the skin so that it made an intendation that went sideways across the finger at about a 25th of an inch deep. That hurt a lot and stayed depressed for over a minute and the skin was dark red. There was tingling and other stuff causing a lot of pain.

As a kid i got tingling from throwing pebbles a lot at a time. Small light objects with fast arm movements probably led to the thinner blood vessels being filled up too much so the added local blood pressure sure can cause tingling. I've done the same rotating the arm like a helicopter blade at a very high speed. I was a competition swimmer so it was good practice.

I suspect that slips have the rim to wind corner scraping the finger print area of the index finger mechanically rubbing the skin and possibly packing blood in some of the veins to a higher local pressure than normal causing the capillary veins to be filled quickly to the maximum diameter.

Like the endless conveyor belt idea you illustrated showed a full rip twists the index finger outer joint straight extremely quickly. A slip might not do that. I think there is a speed difference in the straightening of the joint of the index finger. This is all conceptual i have no measurement data but it would make sense if there is enough of a difference between a slip and a full hit in the index finger straightening to have the disc separate earlier from the index finger in a full hit. Because the speed and momentum of the outer section of the index finger is higher in a full hit. So there might be no scraping at all or if there is it is happening for less time meaning it is possible that the disc touches a shorter part of the index finger.

A full hit will put more pressure on the index finger as long as the index finger outer joint maintains the angle. Probably less after the index finger is straight or almost straight because then there wouldn't be skin to plastic contact like in a slip. The point where it starts to straighten is later in a full hit than a slip. It would not be a slip if you held onto the disc long enough to get it moving on the intended line. A slip can only occur when the index finger straightens earlier than what is needed for a full hit.

Half hits probably involve a lesser scale later beginning slip than the slips that miss to the left of the target. I surmise that half hits have the index finger straightening time in between a slip and a full hit.

So tingling is not always indicative of a slip but IME most of the time i get tingling it is from a slip. YMMV based on form and how fast and spinny you throw, pinch strength etc. One of the major causes to a grip lock is to pull earlier than the plant step lands. Another is to pull far away from the chest at the right pec area roughly. Differences there will most likely result in different tingly sensations too even though the index finger straightening time is later than in a full hit. Unless you switch your running and pulling direction to aim for a consistent grip lock. Meaning RHBH you run more toward the left to compensate for the grip lock going right resulting in a straight down the fairway throw. Not easy so i would not recommend this to anyone but the most experienced throwers even as something to try on the field. There are more important skills to learn and more likely than not you'd lose in consistency at least if not accuracy too. Such is life when you go for added distance. Accuracy and consistency suffer and this method is extremely penalizing for foot slips, wet ground etc.

I'm away for two days so if you have more questions i'll get back to it later.

[soupdeluxe]

Hey
I think you guys are right in thinking the tingling is a result of a slip. I think this slip is occuring later than my usual slips but it is still a slip. Blake describes a squeezing of the disc with his fingers into his palm feeling. He said it is a subtle feeling as well. I do not believe I have felt this yet. I have tried squeezing the disc with my fingers but I don't think this is what he means. I if I interpret him correctly need to feel pressure first and then squeeze. With the forehand I can feel the pressure and if I squeeze at this point the disc whips around fast. With the backhand when your hand goes from 9 to 3 it seems like you would feel pressure of the disc as it wants to whip out and around. It just seems as though my fingers are in the wrong orientation to make this squeeze effective.
I would like to thank iacas for the endless belt diagram. It made me realize I was letting my hand swing in at the end of the hammer pound rather than holding it out there at the pound. This makes for a much stronger feeling. Thanks
SD