David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby iacas » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:23 pm

keltik wrote:oh shit I forgot you were in Canadia. I guess we won't know until May or so...lulz

Nah, c'mon. Maybe late April. :) Don't be such a pessimist! :D
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby archimedesjs » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:51 pm

The thing about threads like this is that I would still rather 2 sentences from David Wiggins than 10 paragraphs, rebuttals, insights, etc. from guys who can barely crest 350'. I understand why Blake focuses more on building feeling, and not getting wrapped up into semantics, and getting really intricate in motions. I've rarely seen the complex paragraphs actually aid somebody into throwing farther. In my experience, it has been simple 1, or 2 sentence comments posted by people like Blake, Beto, zj, catpred, etc. The sad thing is, I rarely see them post in threads like these, that's just my 2 cents.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby iacas » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:00 pm

archimedesjs wrote:The thing about threads like this is that I would still rather 2 sentences from David Wiggins than 10 paragraphs, rebuttals, insights, etc. from guys who can barely crest 350'.

For obvious reasons I feel like that's partly directed at me, and feeling that way is fine. Probably even typical.

In my experience, pros "do" very well but very, very, VERY few "teach" really well or even "understand" really well, and some folks like to be more analytical or scientific about things than just "try this and see if it works." Everyone's a bit different.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby JR » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:15 pm

First off my throwing arm anatomy ain't the way it was when i was born it has been surgically altered and there is residual stuff pressing the nerves so it might influence my experiences some.

Iacas have you seen the Dave's tips video on Innova main page where he talks of the thumb determining the grip strength? You should watch that video.

I always say to try out hings for yourself to test your beliefs. iacas used the words: "I believe". Some tests are extremely easy to perform.

Test one: Strip your forearm bare and hold out your arm straight in front of yourself as far away from the body as you can pointing each finger straight forward. Looking at the forearm muscles on both sides of the largest bones of the forearm move the thumb from pointing straight forward to pointing 90 degrees away from forward left or right depending on which side you're looking at (palm up or down). You should see the muscles move. Movement of the muscle indicates that the muscle is not at rest any more. Forearm muscles are at rest when the fingers point forward. Not when the thumb points away from straight forward. The farther to the side the thumb is pointed the tighter the forearm muscles get. A tight muscle is a slow muscle.

Correct me if i'm wrong but i saw an episode of Sports Science where they said that there are just tendons in the hand and the fingers move by those tendons being pulled by the muscles in the forearm. I need to ask a physiotherapy student i know of that but we won't see until later. I haven't studied anatomy.

Iacas pointed out a great thing about the form of golfers using 3/10 power (feel but how high a percentage of available power actually?) and still getting a strong grip that allows for freedom of movement of the wrists and whatnot. That is what disc golfers need too to a point -staying loose at some parts of the throw to have good wrist mobility while doing the work of accelerating the disc. In the elbow straightening phase the acceleration tries to make the wrist bend back. If it is resisted so that the tendons stretch the wrist will snap forward when the arm starts to move left to right rotationally. From the tendons returning to the normal length. At that point you can utilize a loosely moving wrist to actively add to the snap by using consciously guided active muscle turn of the wrist to the right of neutral. That is the second time there is a good idea to have looseness. The first is in getting the arm to accelerate quickly so depending on the person it might be the right pec area, earlier or later.

Test number two: Setting the thumb in front of the index finger and pushing down with the thumb allowing a free range of movement to the rear of the disc what happens? A free range of movement needs the rear of the disc to rise above the seam of the hand so the base of the thumb can't be in the way. This way it is possible to raise the rear of the disc above the inner joint of the thumb.

Popping up from the grip is possible. Which is the more powerful grip? The one with 4 or 5 fingers? The farther you throw the higher the demands are for the grip strength. Maybe you have not yet overpowered your grip with the power you generate elsewhere. When you do it is easy to see why a more powerful grip is needed to add distance. Anyone can experiment with the limitations grip strength puts on the distance.

Test three: Greasing or soaping up the disc will quickly show the difference between the amount of fingers on the disc. And the orientation of the thumb in the regular or Jenkins way.

So far the strongest grip i've had before trying the pictured way except with the index finger too over the disc has come from a hybrid grip. The thumb is in the Jenkins orientation but the base of the thumb is on the disc. In freezing temperatures it is very easy to see the difference the addition of the Jenkins orientation makes. Also laying the base of the thumb and pushing it down on the flight plate against the pinky pushing up. Without those tricks i get early let slips often with slicker plastics. I've never been able to throw as slick discs into as low temps as this year thanks to the grip modification. I suspect and it feels like the Wiggins grip with the index finger on either side of the disc will add to the grip strength so it will be interesting to soo how it works in action. So far i've tried it only indoors.

Iacas is right about the arm pull geometry influencing the time and manner in which the thumb slides off of the top of the disc. The thumb is the last part on top of the disc to slide off of the disc so that time determines how long the disc can pivot between the fingers even partially. The thumb sliding on the disc won't give the perfect efficiency to the pivot like a static thumb to flight plate position contact would give. The length of the disc pivot limits the power generation. I'm not the only one who has tested that they get longer flights from moving the thumb somewhat toward the center of the disc delaying when the thumb slides off of the top of the disc. The thumb slips off before the index finger does. After that i don't think there is anything added to the speed and spin of the disc. Unless someone has way more index finger power than i do.

Being injured and not monster strong with possible subconscious protection of the arm i might have compromised ability to clamp down the thumb long enough to get an optimal disc pivot. Slo mo video suggests that. That might not be a problem for everyone but i can't usually meet the minimum required thumb pressure to get as late a rip point on the edge of the disc from the thumb at full power as i can get with an approach throw. At low power i can throw the disc backwards pivoting around the arm launching to the right and back from the back of the hand side. No joy at full power. Also the taller and wider winged the disc the less i can pivot it. So at least for some adequate thumb pressure generation is an issue with normal grips. I'm itching to know if this grip would solve that for me :-D Too bad there's a lot of snow on the ground now.

Test four: See which grip yields the most distance. Thumb not on top of the disc, thumb lightly touching the flight plate and thumb pushing down as hard as you can. Then you know how close to the minimum required thumb down pressure you have relative to which distance you get your disc to fly. It would be great to have excess pinch strength. masterbeato wrote that you need to clamp down hard late in the throw and he's pushing 700'.

My grip strength requirements have changed as i've gained distance. If someone has excess gripping power that person might not see a difference as their distance increases. Then there's the issue of detection accuracy and the ways you explore things. One person might detect differences and another one not. So it is not the clinic holders only that vary also the students and their research methods and experience varies too. Once you've felt a new thing it is easier to detect later and with enough practice a previously undetectable thing can become a no brainer.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby allsport1313 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:31 pm

archimedesjs wrote:The thing about threads like this is that I would still rather 2 sentences from David Wiggins than 10 paragraphs, rebuttals, insights, etc. from guys who can barely crest 350'.


You are kidding yourself if you think that two sentences of David Wiggins talking about "Hao 2 Thro Real Farther" would reduce the amount of complexity and variation in disc golf throws. :D Like really, do you think he's just holding on to some universal secret that would make us throw four hundred feet farther? Maybe you just have tl;dr syndrome, most of the guys on here that bother to write extensively about throwing don't just love to type. They are exploring the hundreds if not thousands of subtleties involved in an ideal throw.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby archimedesjs » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:47 pm

No Allsport, but it's simplicity that usually causes revelations. I started on this board barely able to broach 300', and I did all the drills. I listened to all the long, drawn out, elaborate threads written by the people who have come, and gone on the forums. I went from the very first threads, all the way up to the new people who are currently experts. ALL of my breakthroughs came in the way of simple revelations. Hammer drill, and snippets from Catpredator got me to 350', and eventually 400'. The flip-back drill got me to finally get a full-hit throw, and I'm now throwing in excess of 500'.

I used to spend countless hours pouring over the forum threads, and nerding out on it. All it did was create stress, and confusion. There are so many different pros, and so many different manners in which to generate power in a throw. I'm pigeon toed, blind in one eye, and have very little athletic ability. Repetition, and working on "feeling" drills is what generated powerful throws for me. How did the top pros learn it? Ever actually listen to them? They say they usually end up with the same grips, finishing positions, etc. on their own...and do you know why? Because they understood the FEELING they should be going for, and worked on that. That is precisely what Blake teaches. Most of the best athletes in the world build upon feeling, and that is, in my opinion, the best way to learn. I highly doubt Brinster was reading books on bio-mechanics, he was experimenting with how tweaks to his throw generated the most power.

So yes, I know there are no "MAGIC HAO 2 THRO REAL FARTHER" sentences out there, but little tidbits from the top pros who can actually DO something they're offering advice on helps. They don't need to go into a 20 page analysis of why if your index finger's nail is a micrometer too long, you're going to get early slippage about 78% of the way through the throw. It was SMALL suggestions to try out by guys like Blake, ZJ, Catpredator, Keltik, etc. that helped me reach my distance goals. I'm sure I'm coming off as a dick, but I don't care. I know what actually works on this forum, and I know the people who have actually improved, and what got them there. Scour through that a bit, and you might notice the same.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby archimedesjs » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:50 pm

Also, if it were the guys who actually DO throw 500'+, I would listen. I always paid attention to Aaron, Bradley_walker, Blake, etc....but it's rarely them filling up the boards...like the fat bastard in his living room, scarfing down hot dog flavored potato chips telling the TV that the million-dollar running back should have juked, instead of spun in that situation. True experts are rarely self-professed.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby JR » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:56 pm

You never know which kind of communication and what kind of words make things click in the mind of someone. Sometimes a rule of thumb like grip it and rip is enough sometimes a little more is better and at times putting things under a microscope is good.

I've received so much flak from typing long messages and a few thanks too that despite some other posters have made more posts i believe i've typed out the most text on this forum so verbosity as a sin in the eyes of some must mean me more than anyone else. It is hard to describe a complex matter to an ADD sufferer and if you bypass the whys and hows and just say do this it can shorten the message enough to light the bulb. And not at other times for the same person. There is no silver bullet found regarding teaching i know. Except doing your homework on the part of the student. Even people with normal attention span love miracle cures being flooded with so much information these days. To them i say having a learning curve can be a good thing too because when something is routine and not challenging the rewards get fewer because you aren't gaining anything new often or at all. Climo said that in an interview some years ago. Some worlds DVD probably.

Believe or not i don't love typing. It can be hard to believe based on the amount of typing i do. It certainly ain't palatable always and is often a chore. But whatever to make the sport better.

I wouldn't belittle either of the Wigginses registered on this forum. Obviously there has to be some kind of intelligence behind that grip and those distances so who knows how well thy could explain what David junior does?

archimedes i've traveled down two parallel roads simultaneously. I've thrown with different techniques and i've tried to learn theory too. Winters are long here so hitting the theory and gym helps in avoiding cabin fever. It's too cold to throw more than 2-3 times a week in the coldest part of the winter. I'd say i've gotten many ideas from the comments of others once i've made the connection to theory and then changed my form.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby ferretdance03 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:59 pm

archimedesjs wrote:...and I'm now throwing in excess of 500'...

archimedesjs wrote:Also, if it were the guys who actually DO throw 500'+, I would listen...

So speak. We're listening.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby JR » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:09 pm

ferretdance03 wrote:
archimedesjs wrote:...and I'm now throwing in excess of 500'...

archimedesjs wrote:Also, if it were the guys who actually DO throw 500'+, I would listen...

So speak. We're listening.


Yes please what is it about the flip back drill that made you discover what that pushed your D to 500'+? And how did you perform differently as a result?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby archimedesjs » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:48 pm

Ferretdancer...I did, that's my sage advice. Look back and read all the posts made by ZJ, CatPredator, Blake, Aaron, and glean what you can from their posts. Figure out which plateau you're stuck at out of Blake's original "incomplete secret..." thread, and then try what his recommendations are for the people who are stuck there. Or search threads of people who were stuck in similiar positions, and read what the aforementioned people had to say about it...hell, if it helps, read back at all my stupid posts asking for help, and follow the advice I was given.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby keltik » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:24 pm

Wow I didn't expect all this to happen. I was just repeating what the kid showed me.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby archimedesjs » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:52 pm

JR wrote:
ferretdance03 wrote:
archimedesjs wrote:...and I'm now throwing in excess of 500'...

archimedesjs wrote:Also, if it were the guys who actually DO throw 500'+, I would listen...

So speak. We're listening.


Yes please what is it about the flip back drill that made you discover what that pushed your D to 500'+? And how did you perform differently as a result?


The flip-back drill taught me how to have fluidity in the hammer pound, and that it's not just a violent movement. It has to be slow to fast like the rest of the throw, it's the acceleration, not the actual speed. During my throws, and I've argued with Blake about this, I waggle my wrist as I approach the power pocket. Instead of letting centrifugal force close my wrist, or fight to keep it from closing, I perform "the flip-back drill", and just time it so that it's on the tail end of everything else opening up. I actually walk around between holes performing the drill just to keep my wrist loose, and the "feel" down. You can watch my latest video here, of a casual round with friends from this summer. My friends aren't as keen on capturing form, as they are on seeing the results of the throw, but you can see the "flip-back" drill in the tail end of most of my throws. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2AnSweT0gc
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby JR » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:57 am

I've always been too herky jerky in the hammer drill i suppose. Too fast in not much out.

That video has too long exposure time to make much out of even freeze frames because the arm is a blurr even at that speed. The only thing i noticed about the wrist from these videos was that you have some pre cocking of the wrist to the left of neutral when the disc is coming to the left side or the center of your body.

On a side note: You are not turning the head much at all away from the target but you reach back not in a straight line so the result is a fairly long reach back and early rounding and a higher risk of hitting your left side with the disc if you overcommit and pull the arm too early. I've done that too much. Turning the shoulders so much that the disc won't move in a straight line but an arc initially lengthens the reach back and adds power but at least for me it is less accurate and repeatable reach back than a straight reach back. Since the line during the wrist snap is more important it is possible to learn accuracy and consistency to a high level even with that kind of reach back. I'm not that far in the execution. I tried that for a couple of years on desperation long shots after a lot of field practice. The extra few feet usually are not helping to score better but the risk of messing up and worsening the score was too high for me. In doubles it is sometimes a good idea to go all out so i do throw those shots at times still. It is not as automated now after using that form way less.

It looked to me that your pause was on the short side with the hips twisting earlier than the disc getting well elbow forward.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: David Wiggins Jr. Clinic?

Postby cubeofsoup » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:34 am

My advice is always comparative. I try never saying what to do based on my experiences because I am still learning myself. I do think there can be a lot learned from breaking down the throw of a professional. There is a certain cadence most pros throw with that I believe is the result of them having superb timing; my biggest critique for people is attempting to get them to see the difference in cadence of their throw compared to a pro's.

Sorry if you don't want to read my posts or listen to me because I can't break 400'. I do have a brain and I do love disc golf...I like combining those things to talk about technique and the throw, it's almost as much of a hobby as the sport itself. I don't know if I echo the sentiments of others here but it is fun for me to post and talk about stuff in depth. I'm not just looking for a quick one liner to break me into the next plane of throwing...I just want to talk about disc golf.
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