Heavier discs and Nose Angles?

[Crosseyed0811]

I've had a rather curious thing pop up recently when testing out my discs. I haven't been able to feel like I could really throw anything over a Teebird and get the most out of it, and I feel like I should be throwing them farther even. However in watching the speed I can get and the way the disc flies compared to what I see when better players fly I have determined I really feel like I have nose angle issues. While my discs may stay low for the most part the nose is slightly up basically causing the disc to only go as far as I throw it as opposed to the disc taking over at some point and flying.

I have 2 Wraiths and they were going to be the disc I started trying to get my nose angles worked out with so they would fly the way they're supposed to. One is a 169 Champ the other a 174 Pro. I noticed something after a round of throwing both in that I seemed to be able to get a more consistent lower trajectory with a better nose angle with the 174 Pro where there Champ seemed to get high on me and have much more noticeable nose up issues.

Is this something anyone else has noticed? I've always gravitated towards drivers in the 167-169 range, but I'm wondering if I should try getting some of my fav molds in heavier weights and see if this seems to hold true for all my molds. An added note, that 174 Pro Wraith feels better in my hand than any other driver I've ever thrown. I KNOW some of that is the Pro plastic, but maybe the heavier weight makes it feel more solid in my hand as well.

[keltik]

I think most DGers, myself included, get to a point where it comes down to the subtleties of the throw that keeps them at a certain plateau. I know I struggle with it at times. and I too was at a point where only the good old Innova fairways would fly right for me. but I also generally throw 172+ in fairways. 172 is a good weight IME for drivers in general. one thing that has helped me lately with nose angle is tweaking my grip. I have to feel the nose of the disc wedge between the base knuckles of my forefinger and middle finger in the palm of my hand.

reread the grip it to rip it article on the main site here and really pay attention to how the disc is oriented in your palm and the placement of your thumb. it helped me.

[Crosseyed0811]

Lol yeah, I've read all those long instructional articles OVER AND OVER, well before I even knew there were forums here. But I'll check that one out again. That's the great thing about those is there always seems to be something else to get out of it.

I've actually picked up some stuff from the Ask MJ thread elsewhere that has me thinking about how I grip it as well... I need the cold to go away so I can test some of these things...

[keltik]

oh good grief you live in South Carolina. It doesn't get that cold down there. Man up!

and yes the ask MJ thread rocks.

[Crosseyed0811]

Lol, I NEVER GET COLD, people around here think I'm crazy most of the time...

...but my hand was numb before I could get all the ice off my car this morning...

[Stringbean]

It could be an OAT issue. Champ Wraiths are more stable than Pro. My experience has been that stable to overstable discs thrown with OAT will rise rather than turnover. Does your Pro Wraith tend to turn more than the Champ?

[Crosseyed0811]

The champ has much more movement in general. Its a squirrely Wraith to me. I've heard the nearly clear transparent champs (which this one is) seem to be that way but I don't remember where I heard it from. I would say the Pro is more HSS and less LSS. I've never flipped the Pro (its older but its not that beat up and not met many trees) where as I've had the occasional OATy throw where the champ one turns over and never comes back. I won't even attempt to FH it on the course because I've seen it do it too many times on my FH.

[JR]

The weight of the disc should not matter that much with so little difference between the discs. Even discs of the same plastic can fly more differently due to the shape than the weight. I have a Pro 166 Wraith that is tougher than early Pro Wraiths that beat to flippy quickly. The 166 has seen action and is as overstable as a max weight champ that is opaque. Nose angles tend to be problems for speed 11 and over as a rule.

[Crosseyed0811]

Nose angles tend to be problems for speed 11 and over as a rule.

This is what I'd heard, so I was wondering if that may be why I had issues with some of these discs. I feel like I have fairly good power and speed, but my discs go as far as I've powered them and then seem to stall (best way I can describe it) So my thought was maybe its nose angle and so I started working with these two Wraiths.

From there is where I noticed with the heavier disc I seemed to be much more consistent with keeping the disc low and flat (what I tend to try to do) where as the lighter one tended to go high on me and hyzer out way left..

[Stringbean]

How far are you throwing your Wraiths?

[Crosseyed0811]

300 or so. Seems to be where I've always been stuck with them and my Teebirds aren't much shorter, at least within 10ft of them... The flight pattern looks off to me which is why I think its nose angle issues, seems to stall out even though they are more line drive type throws... I also feel like I see the top side of the disc when its in the air.

Oddly I can FH my Firebird a good 50-75 past the Wraith...

[JR]

BH is easy to throw high and FH low. The Wraith is designed to fly at higher speeds that is needed for a 300' line drive so stalls are expected even if you threw nose up and getting the disc level would added immediate 50'. Which could happen when you achieve nose and rear level for a not too high throw. The faster you throw the higher the apex can be. The higher you throw the harder it is to get the nose as low or lower than the rear of the disc.

The easiest start is to aim head high or a little lower so that you don't need to push the front of the disc so low down. Sure such a low apex height will bring the disc down early at under the best possible distance but it will be the easiest step in rectifying the nose angle. And form change is the key to more distance and control. Try to grip the disc so that the rear part of the disc is in the thumb inner joint and the fingers are inside the disc so that you can tilt the front of the disc as far down as possible. Also try putting the thumb closer toward the center pushing down in about 70 degree angle with the outermost part of the thumb. A lot of wrist pushing down once the elbow straightens is good for keeping the front of the disc down. The flip side is that the arm muscles might get slower from being too tense. Working out helps in that in the long term.

[Crosseyed0811]

Struggling to put all of what you said together right now, I'll keep reading it till I get it though...

Just wanted to point out however, I tend to try throwing low all the time, like I never try to throw over 10' off the ground. I seem to be able to do that consistently (though I still seem to have some nose issues) with the heavier wraith, where the lighter wraith seems to try to sail high on me.

[JR]

The Wraith is so power hungry and hard fading that it will drop out of the air quickly with a 10' apex thrown to 350'. It likes to fly to 380'+ much more and even then it tends to fade pretty hard.

[Stringbean]

JR, can you explain the 70 degree thumb angle? Is that 70 degrees in relation to the disc on the veritical axis (thumb bent down)?

Crosseyed, if you are able to keep the disc low throughout the flight, that means that you are pulling through correctly and your weight is centered over your front foot. That narrows the problem down to your grip and wrist angle.

Regarding your grip, keep in mind that the disc is going to pivot around your pinch point, so the rear of the disc as you hold it in your hand will become the front of the disc upon release. From JR's post, placing your thumb more towards the center of the disc and applying pressure at the last second will force the nose down upon release. Also try to angle your wrist down in the handshake position as you pinch at the last second.