Heavier discs and Nose Angles?

[JR]

Actually down from the hand shaking position. That can be a steep angle but the disc should be at least parallel but lower to the largest bones in the forearm.

Yes i meant thumb outermost section being almost vertical pushing down on the flight plate. So that the rest of the thumb is not in contact with the disc and the pressure of the thumb pinch is not divided over as large of an area as with all of the thumb on the flight plate. More pressure=more friction=stronger grip. The flight plate will probably bend down some and add some more grip because the tip of the thumb needs to climb out of the pit uphill. In 2003 worlds video Climo showed regular thumb orientation intead of the Jenkins grip described above and called pushing the flight plate down as having control. It is easier to avoid slipping of the disc when the base of the thumb rests on the flight plate too and the tip to finger print corner of the thumb digs into the flight plate.

The further out toward the outer edge of the disc the thumb lies the more it points forward and can be ahead of the index finger. Since the thumb is on top of the disc pushing down on it will automatically drop the front of the disc and raise the rear as long as there is room for the disc to move into the deeper front down orientation. Which is not true for every grip. Regular power grip has the disc in the crease of the hand and the base of the thumb can be in the way. So it is a trade off in grip strength if you decide to raise the rear of the disc the lie near or at the innermost joint of the thumb. Because then the base of the thumb cannot push down on the flight plate.

The Wiggins grip does not have the index finger under the disc at all so the thumb is well ahead of the middle finger which is the foremost finger under the disc. It has the the thumb and the base of the thumb on the disc but from the way others described the grip you could get an even stronger grip by tilting the head of the thumb down like the Jenkins family.

I have not experimented with actual throws yet how extreme nose down angles you could get if you weakened the grip on top of the disc by removing the base of the thumb from the top of the flight plate. So that the rear of the disc can rise close to the innermost joint of the thumb. If you don't orient the middle and ring fingers upright on the rim but almost along the rim removing the pinky from under the disc you can get a fairly strong grip and pushing the wrist down when not throwing produced about 30 degree nose down angle on the disc when the hyzer angle was horizontal. Naturally doing the same while throwing is way harder. The wrist moves and if you don't use the hyper spin technique where the wrist does not bend to the left of resting position during the throw (or shouldn't turn) the bones n the wrist will try to push the hand up as it moves from bent back to the resting position. You can fight this but it takes some muscle power and some powerful guys here got that to work on the first day and weak old me am very inconsistent with how well i do. At my feeble strength i need to use so much of my muscle power in the arm to wrestle the hand to be down when the disc rips that the forearm muscles are so tense that it slows down the throw costing distance.

The solution is twofold. Have enough muscle power in the forearm to be able to stay loose enough in the muscles for good acceleration of the arm and cheating the wrist bones. Which can happen by not allowing the wrist to bend to the left and snapping from the resting position to the right (hyper spin technique) with the hand or allowing the wrist to bend a little snapping to straight or a little right of the resting position but keeping the hand at resting position in the vertical axis until the hand is coming straight in the snap in the horizontal axis and then pushing down. The latter version is insanely difficult to time and the order to bend the wrist down has to leave the brain early because that part of the wrist snap is probably under 1/100 seconds long. And the rip occurs in super quick succession after the disc pivots very quickly. And you need to pinch the disc too at that time and aim the disc and so on so there is more to do than the brain can handle so it needs to become automated with probably thousands of repetitions. After/if you get it right which may take a lot of throws and time. So do you have years to pursue that goal or are you one of the gifted ones that get it in the first attempt and can reproduce it always? Nobody knows before you try.

These are by no means the only grip variations that are out there and at least the Bonopane grip too can produce extreme nose down angles. It just tends to hurt in the fingers while throwing. I've not used it enough to see if the fingers would adapt to it and become pain free. There may be some other grip tricks that can help too but you've got a lot of experimenting to do with the above tricks already.

[Crosseyed0811]

Wiggins grip??? I never knew he did anything other than a power grip... Pics/Video?

Also, any more recommendations for discs that get the most distance out of low line shots? I throw Teebirds quite a bit, just want something to step up from there.. Tried a few Valks here and there but they never seem to do what I expect...

[allsport1313]

Wiggins grip??? I never knew he did anything other than a power grip... Pics/Video?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25437

Check out keltik's pics on the first page

[Stringbean]

Thanks JR, just got back from my lunch break, the 70 degree thumb angle was the missing link for me. I can finally throw high + nose down.

[JR]

Congratulations Strinbean! Did you notice flight path and distance differences with the grip change?

Crosseyed some modern discs outfly the Teebird nicely on low lines. Valk is an older and longer design than the TB what was your issue with it? River is a really well gliding low fade disc with less power requirement than the Valk and the Valk powers down nicely. Newer Sidewinders flip but at least they are consistent in the flip now. Less fade and power requirement than the Valk and more D. Beast is beefier and more power hungry than the Valk. Beast is developed from the Valk and at power is noticeably longer.

Those discs are in a power progression that starts with the only driver that works well and is controllable at 300' the Leopard. I can't get my Star to flip, a Champ flips a little, Pro a lot and a DX breaks into a roller soon. No other driver needs as little power to be able to fly to the left, center or right. Leos are the most nose angle insensitive drivers in existence.

[Crosseyed0811]

I may need to try that out myself then, that's always been one of the things I've struggled with even thinking about, which is probably a major reason I prefer to throw the lower line drive shots because I can't even visualize how you would throw something higher with the nose down.

[PMantle]

Also, any more recommendations for discs that get the most distance out of low line shots? I throw Teebirds quite a bit, just want something to step up from there.. Tried a few Valks here and there but they never seem to do what I expect...

I have had good luck with Pro Destroyers and Champion Archons for low line distance. Starting to work in an Astra too. Farther than my teebird if thrown right. X Wildcat also, but it requires some room to work, for me.

[Stringbean]

Congratulations Strinbean! Did you notice flight path and distance differences with the grip change?

Crosseyed some modern discs outfly the Teebird nicely on low lines. Valk is an older and longer design than the TB what was your issue with it? River is a really well gliding low fade disc with less power requirement than the Valk and the Valk powers down nicely. Newer Sidewinders flip but at least they are consistent in the flip now. Less fade and power requirement than the Valk and more D. Beast is beefier and more power hungry than the Valk. Beast is developed from the Valk and at power is noticeably longer.

Those discs are in a power progression that starts with the only driver that works well and is controllable at 300' the Leopard. I can't get my Star to flip, a Champ flips a little, Pro a lot and a DX breaks into a roller soon. No other driver needs as little power to be able to fly to the left, center or right. Leos are the most nose angle insensitive drivers in existence.

Thanks again JR. I have always been able to throw flat but could never figure out how to throw nose down. This will allow me to throw on a higher line for more distance. I didn't have a lot of time to throw yesterday and there were 40 mph wind gusts so it was hard to judge any distance increases. But I think I have the tools to break 400ft.

Crosseyed, I think you should keep working on your grip until you can get the disc flat or nose down, a different disc won't solve your problems. You will be happier in the long run and save a little cash too.

As far as visualizing throwing high and nose down, think of the angle of the disc relative to the ground. When you throw flat, your arm and the disc are parallel to the ground upon release. If you raise your arm/shoulders at a 15 degree angle relative to the ground, the disc will also be at a 15 degree angle relative to the ground and will now be nose up.

By applying pressure with your thumb towards the middle of the flight plate (as the disc rotates around your pinch point), the nose of the disc will be forced down which will change the angle to flat or even lower depending on how much pressure you apply. So even though your arm/shoulders are at a 15 degree angle, the disc will be released flat or nose down relative to the ground.

[Crosseyed0811]

I wasn't looking to change discs to fix a release angle issue, I am smarter than that

The question on discs spawned from this comment:

The Wraith is so power hungry and hard fading that it will drop out of the air quickly with a 10' apex thrown to 350'. It likes to fly to 380'+ much more and even then it tends to fade pretty hard.

In related new, hearing McBeth talk so highly of Krait recently I'm actually wondering if I should try one of those. If it flies like the ratings say it would be a little more "point and click" like my teebird is than the wraith.

[JR]

I have a light Blizzard Krait and it is power hungry and it will fade hard for a 400'+ thrower. McBeth has tons of power and it is probably great for 450'+ throws but at a little over 400' of power it is too much for best distance. The Teebird is straighter.

The farther forward the thumb is the more leverage you can have in pushing the front of the disc down. The trouble is a weaker grip than in the Jenkins way and since the thumb is closer to the edge the thumb slides off earlier. So until you have clamp like power in the fingers it is a compromise between slipping, the length of the disc pivot and the ability to push the front down. The Wiggins grip has the index finger under the wing not inside the disc so the thumb is automatically more forward the middle finger and this way the thumb can be placed away from the edge of the disc for control and still have good leverage in pushing the front of the disc down.

[Crosseyed0811]

Congratulations Strinbean! Did you notice flight path and distance differences with the grip change?

Crosseyed some modern discs outfly the Teebird nicely on low lines. Valk is an older and longer design than the TB what was your issue with it? River is a really well gliding low fade disc with less power requirement than the Valk and the Valk powers down nicely. Newer Sidewinders flip but at least they are consistent in the flip now. Less fade and power requirement than the Valk and more D. Beast is beefier and more power hungry than the Valk. Beast is developed from the Valk and at power is noticeably longer.

Those discs are in a power progression that starts with the only driver that works well and is controllable at 300' the Leopard. I can't get my Star to flip, a Champ flips a little, Pro a lot and a DX breaks into a roller soon. No other driver needs as little power to be able to fly to the left, center or right. Leos are the most nose angle insensitive drivers in existence.

Could I get a clarification on this post? Not looking for concrete answers, just what your view is starting from Leo where the power progression goes in order. Again not really looking for the law of DG or anything, just curious on what your thoughts are here cause it was a concept that intrigued me.

[JR]

Leo/XL are the first driver that should be tried after you get enough power to be able to control mids on every line. Earlier it used to be easier with fewer molds for the next steps. TL and JLS maybe Eagle L too then Valkyrie then Beast. River upset that becoming the best disc after Leo/XL. Now that RR, CD, FD, Northman, Saint, Volt and Amp are out there is stiff competition for the Valkyrie. Overpopulation but that is a great role in scoring. So far i have not found anything as long and low power requiring wind tolerant and nose angle insensitive distance driver that fades as little as the Beast. Straight TDs come in second and domey high PLH Opto Flows next.

Warp speeders are only a little longer than the Beast but much more nose angle sensitive and power hungry thus way harder to control on all lines. Wraith is the easiest to throw in between the Beast and the warp speeders disc but the Flow i described above is the same except with a hair less fade and because the Beast is so straight it is equally long. So i'd hunt for the overstabler Flows or Wraiths for s-curves and left finishes at the same distance as the Beast which is great for lasers, right and continuously left turning hyzers. Wraiths and Flows start straight then fade harder left. Some like the Sword and the Destroyer as an in between disc from Beast/Wraith/Flow (overstable kind) to warp speeders but so far i've been able to skip these enroute to the big boys. But the manufacturer said my Sword is the most overstable kind from the unmarked first run (still not the most dependable disc in the wind in TP) so perhaps the less fading TP or who knows how fading VIP might change my opinion. Again the straightness of my Beasts means that is as long as the overstable Sword i have is. I don't know how much longer the less fading Sword is for me but then it might make more sense because it is the least nose angle fussy disc of the faster than the Beast crowd.

Carrying an overstable and understable warp speeder will alleviate power generation issues for different flight paths but does nothing to help nose angle requirements. Naturally carrying lighter discs will help in lowering power requirement for all lines so the first step into Beasts and warp speeders at least should be with way less than max weight discs.

So my picks are Leo Champ or Star (more HSS and LSS and shorter), River, Beast, some Blizzard low weighter most likely Wraith and a light warp speeder. Kings mostly are flippy as hell discs and all variations are the least nose angle sensitive of the warp speeders. Unfortunately they are all over the place in shape and flight performance but VIP tall dome and high PLH are very sexy and until the Zero G Quantums came around that kind of King was the easiest warp speeder to manage in all conditions.

Exceptions exist if you are not looking for discs that need to perform in all kinds of conditions. Headwind and downwind discs separately offer even more choices. The taste for fade and s-curve vs straight line plus straight then hard left or hyzer all the way to the left preferences dictate what the best selection is for any role and other discs in the bag matter overlap wise. That is why you can have thousands of perfectly fine working bags for all kinds of conditions and at least hundreds of bags that handle all conditions with few all rounder molds.

[Crosseyed0811]

Thanks for the reply JR, insightful as always.

I think I need to really spend some time with Leos. I always love them when I get them, but wind up trying to "move on" too quickly. Had a nice Star Leo at one time that I had some good throws with, but I've never really tried a champ.

Edit: Got confused again, imagine that...

TL and JLS maybe Eagle L too then Valkyrie then Beast. River upset that becoming the best disc after Leo/XL. Now that RR, CD, FD, Northman, Saint, Volt and Amp are out there is stiff competition for the Valkyrie.

Are you talking about 2 different slots here? [TL, JLS, Eagle L, River] and then [RR, CD, FD, Northman, Saint, Volt, Amp, Valk]? I've never thrown a River so I wasn't sure if you were saying it was in competition with the Valk. Cause later on you skipped the Valk and went from River to Beast.

[PMantle]

Nothing I've thrown can beat a a Dx Teebird or Star TL in distance for the rim size.

[JR]

I won't tell anyone you must fill this role in your bag i can only give suggestions as to why. It's your game with your preferences in your courses in unknown weather for me so it would be stupid of me to issue commands

PMantle is correct in that the TL is longer than the wing width suggests but so is the slightly larger winged River for even more distance. I'm not so sure that one could grow out of Star and Champ Leos and the great thing about the superb durability of the Champ at least is that as long as you don't lose the first one it lasts for years.

You are correct in your question in that those discs fall into different distance ranges of FW and distance drivers and the River is in between flying like a FW but having a discontinuity in distance control at 400'ish with warp speeders it is straight and long. Take anything off and it fades harder and can be 30' shorter with little control in between those distances.

Regular FWs like the JLS, EL and TL are much easier to range and need less power for right finishes. The RR, FD, CD, Northman, Saint, Volt and Amp (haven't thrown that one) are longer. I think they are roughly in reverse order from longest to shortest. Beast is more like a maximum distance driver so you could view it as a third slot. Last year they came up with so much longer discs that they can have an edge over the Beast in a meaningful way so what would that slot me named? Hail mary slot my recommendation depending on power is Zero G Quasar of appropriate PLH and weight for your power?

To muddy the picture PD is like the TL and high PLH tall Flows in picking up a lot of distance on s-curves. The PD is normally more overstable and way better wind beater than any of the other discs in this post. PDs vary a lot with P lights breaking in fairly fast and becoming good for right finishes and other plastics being more overstable.