Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastics

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Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastics

Postby tumtumsback123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:18 am

Can anyone put their two cents in, or point me in a good direction, for a detailed explanation of stability in terms of unofficial and official characteristics of Innova Discs? The disc in question is the Katana.

Unofficial: For example, I feel that one will notice (unofficially) stability increase (STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX) as they move from R-Pro < DX < Pro < Star < Champion, in that a DX Wraith is going to flip easier than a Pro Wraith, which flips a bit easier than a Star Wraith, which flips a bit easier than a Champion Wraith [my stable baby ;) ] and that this all can change with beating the discs up (NOT STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX, but USED) (DX gets really flippy quick, Pro gets flippy with some good beating in, Star beats in slowly, and Champion has the slowest rate of becoming flippy), but I am trying to get even more specific information with a few items:

Official: I was just over at a buddy's house last night, thumbing through his disc boxes, and came across an Echo Star Katana labeled 13 | 6 | -2 | 2 ... This pissed me off, because I love Katanas and I am used to seeing 13 | 5 | -3 | 3 (even with other Echo Star Katanas). Most recently the factory is producing Katanas that are 13 | 5 | -2 | 3, and Innova says on their website and chart that only the Champion line has the high speed turn characteristic of -2, but then I see Star Katanas at the local disc shop labeled with the -2.

WHAT THE ****?!

So I've seen Echo Star Katanas with 13 | 6 | -2 | 2 and 13 | 5 | -3 | 3
Star Katanas with 13 | 5 | -3 | 3 and 13 | 5 | -2 | 3
Champion Katanas with 13 | 5 | -2 | 3

What is going on -- through all of these different flight numbers, has Innova been tooling with the mold, or have all of these discs always been the same mold and they are just realizing later on that the flight characteristics they claimed were not measuring up to how people were reporting them over time, so they change the numbers on the stamp?

I don't know if I should grab all the 13 | 5 | -3 | 3 Star Katanas that I can, or will the 13 | 5 | -2 | 3 Star Katana throw just the same? And I still don't know why Innova says on their website and flight chart that only the Champion Katana will has the -2 | 3 , but I see new Star Katanas labeled -2 | 3 ... :evil:
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby tumtumsback123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:19 am

In addition, I know that Innova also claims the new Champion Bosses are 13 | 5 | 0 | 3, rather than 13 | 5 | -1 | 3.

Has anyone seen any Star Bosses labeled with the Champion numbers, 13 | 5 | 0 | 3?

Friggin' inconsistencies :(
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby allsport1313 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:57 am

I believe Innova said that those were misprints, not sure though. Straight out of the box I think all plastics should fly almost identically, but with Innova even the same disc in the same plastic can fly differently.

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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby inbounds » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:11 am

allsport1313 wrote:Straight out of the box I think all plastics should fly almost identically, but with Innova even the same disc in the same plastic can fly differently.


Different plastics will have different flight paths, regardless of the manufacturer. While the differences can be subtle and nearly indistinguishable, the differences exist. It appears that certain discs (such as the Katana) highlight these differences more than other discs. For some more reading on the subject:

http://www.inboundsdiscgolf.com/content ... 73#Plastic
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby tumtumsback123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:13 am

allsport1313 wrote:Straight out of the box I think all plastics should fly almost identically, but with Innova even the same disc in the same plastic can fly differently.


Keyword "should" ... Go buy a DX Teebird and a Champion Teebird, and throw both of them on a hyzer line with good power... You'll get the DX Teebird to hyzer-flip into an anhyzer, where the Champion Teebird might not even flip past flattening out...
Last edited by tumtumsback123 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby tumtumsback123 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:15 am

But back on topic, does anyone think I should go out and grab all the 13 | 5 | -3 | 3 Star Katanas that I can; does anyone think these new 13 | 5 | -2 | 3 Star Katanas will fly any differently? And also, does anyone think that the 13 | 6 | -2 | 2 Echo Star Katana flys any different than the 13 | 5 | -3 | 3 Star Katanas and 13 | 5 | -2 | 3 Star Katanas?
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby victorb » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:35 am

allsport1313 wrote:I believe Innova said that those were misprints, not sure though.


doesn't look like it's a misprint to me.

http://www.innovadiscs.com/media/PDF/20 ... er-web.pdf
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby PMantle » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:42 am

tumtumsback123 wrote:
allsport1313 wrote:Straight out of the box I think all plastics should fly almost identically, but with Innova even the same disc in the same plastic can fly differently.


Keyword "should" ... Go buy a DX Teebird and a Champion Teebird, and throw both of them on a hyzer line with good power... You'll get the DX Teebird to hyzer-flip into an anhyzer, where the Champion Teebird might not even flip past flattening out...

This is why I now carry a champion teebird and a star TL instead of a few DX teebirds. I kinda miss the DXs, but they just start too understable(for me and the use I have for them), and change too fast.
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby JHern » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:30 pm

We already addressed this in a different thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25220
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby allsport1313 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:00 pm

victorb wrote:
doesn't look like it's a misprint to me.

http://www.innovadiscs.com/media/PDF/20 ... er-web.pdf


oh oops thanks, must have been thinking of another disc

inbounds wrote:
Different plastics will have different flight paths, regardless of the manufacturer. While the differences can be subtle and nearly indistinguishable, the differences exist. It appears that certain discs (such as the Katana) highlight these differences more than other discs. For some more reading on the subject:

http://www.inboundsdiscgolf.com/content ... 73#Plastic


Well yeah of course, but if we're emphasizing "straight out of the box" like the OP was, I think there's much less variability. I suppose I thought that these alleged differences were just a function of which plastics beat up more than others. Or do plastics inherently fly different enough 'out of the box' to warrant a change in flight ratings? Either way, I think its a bit fishy that Innova only found that two of their molds exhibit this rule of thumb straight out of the box.
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby PMantle » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:23 pm

allsport1313 wrote: Or do plastics inherently fly different enough 'out of the box' to warrant a change in flight ratings?

I can think of a few that do.

Discraft:
Cyclone
Buzzz
Avenger
XL (4 different ratings!)
XS
Xpress

Innova:
Boss
Katana
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Re: Katana -- Different Flight Numbers for Different Plastic

Postby ljerome » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:20 pm

You have hit on a real sore spot for me. I just posted similar questions in the Discmania thread. Here is my experience as I love the Katana as well. You can go buy Katanas marked exactly the same and they still may not fly the same. Your odds certainly increase that they will fly the same and fly according to the "numbers" stated but there is no guarentee. That is the deal with Innova/Discmania and we have to get used to it or try other disc makers. Do not go into it thinking you will get the discs with the same turn/fade/glide numbers and they will all fly the same. Sorry, that is not the case. I started throwing the P-Line DD2 and it had a pop top. I was in PIAS and found an S-Line DD2 that was completely flat! WTF? So....not only was it a different plastic which is fine but the disc looked completely different as well. Totally frustrating. I am used to it now as it seems to happen with every mold.

As far as plastics, Star is usually the most stable for me though again not always. Sometimes champ is more stable but I usually find star to be a little more stable. It USUALLY goes from DX to Pro to Champ to Star in terms of stability for me. Good luck but um.........get used to the inconsistencies......that is the deal as far as I can see.
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