3 Months in, time for a critique

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3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:38 am

So all of the guys I regularly play with throw forehand and have very little to offer concerning backhand throws, which, is all I've really worked on. Here are a couple vids from this weekend, any and all help is appreciated. FWIW, I'm throwing a 146g Blizzard Katana and both of these throws went about 270'-280'.





Thanks, any help is very much appreciated.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby JR » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:41 am

It is a too fast disc for that distance and it punishes you harder than slower discs for throwing with the front of the disc higher than the rear like you do. Also the varying height of the arm swooping from high to low then rising again in the end will lift the disc high, kill the speed and stall the disc moving left to right instead of back to front=very limited distance potential. Even if you added 200' worth of good form power you'd get a fraction of that so forcing the disc to leave level is the first thing to do. Because nose up throwing masks other issues in form so changing things won't show up as well as they should and you might get corrupt data on the differences of different ways of doing things. Which may lead to adopting non optimal ways to throw.

You lost before you began due to the grip and wrist orientation. It is true that at times the disc was parallel to the forearm so at times earlier in the throw you were ok but that went awry when it counted at the rip. No matter how you orient the disc in the hand you still need to push the wrist down. When and how hard probably varies from person to person based on muscle power and nerve speed and the power they put into the throw. The faster you throw the more the chances of needing to begin earlier are that it would help. I'd start experimenting with when to push the wrist down around when the elbow starts to straighten. Trying both earlier and later beginning times. The effort needs to be form for powerful guys and full on for lesser powered people. Not allowing the wrist to bend to the right of neutral snapping the wrist to the left of neutral might help in keeping the wrist down.

There are thousands of grip variations to test so search for Wiggins grip and Jenkins grip.

For a pre flight check list try doing a mock up arm pull at a slow pace visually checking that you pull the arm at a constant height and in a straight line back to front noting the feel trying to reproduce that in the actual throw.

The test for succeeding in getting the disc level back and front at the same height or even better getting the front lower is not seeing the top of the disc rather seeing the bottom or having a spotter look at the disc in mid flight noting the nose angle.

I'd make a new video after you get the disc level and please tell us how far that same disc goes after getting the nose level or down.

The rest of your throw is not bad at all for the time you've played actually it is unusually good so great job thumbs up!
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:36 am

Thanks so much for the feedback it is very much appreciated. I knew when I first saw the videos I have have major issues with the angle of the disc, I never realized how far up/down a swoop with the disc! I was also a little taken aback when I watched that it looked like I wasn't accelerating at all at the end when my focus was certainly to do just that... Lots to work on - I'll update after several weeks of practice and see where we end up and post again. Thanks!
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:27 pm

Wow, after reading through Blake's grip article I can't believe how off my grip has been :shock: ... Really looking forward to getting to the park and working through some of these problems. Actually reminds me a lot of ball golf - I spent 3-4 months making major grip changes that moved me from a 21 handicap to a 12 in a year. Hoping som some of these things will be that start of good things in my disc golf game...
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby JR » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:28 am

Getting the nose down is the largest hurdle technique wise early in the throwing career. Curing that will add distance noticeably.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:40 pm

Okay, I've been working on grip for the past few weeks. I've dug through several of the threads here and have, what I feel is an approach to getting the nose down via grip... What I'm struggling with is getting both "thumb forward" and "above the seam" Here's some photos for reference/critique. FWIW, I have short sausage fingers and a big paw like palm...

Above the seam:

Image

Above the seam top down (not thumb forward???)

Image

Above the seam bottom

Image

In the seam, but thumb forward (?)

Image

In the seam... not as nose down...

Image
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby JR » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:28 am

Finger length is a hindrance when you don't have it definitely. Ask me how i know. Your interpretation of above the seam is correct and nobody prevents you from raising the rear of the disc higher even up to the thumb joint. Your fingers do appear to be short and it might mean that the Teebird (especially one with that high profile i have way flatter ones) be too large for you. Leverage suffers for every millimeter of wider wing and it is difficult to get leverage with the index finger out of a disc that has equal or wider wing than the middle section of the index finger. Wiggins grip might help a little because the middle section of the middle finger is longer. However; even discs with well wider wings than the finger middle section can be oriented more front down in the grip. For you the disc lies above the index finger when it should be underneath. Again the longer the fingers and the thinner the disc and shorter the wing the easier it is to push the front down. The trouble for short fingers and small hands is that to get the front of the disc really down needs muscle effort even when raising the rear of the disc to the thumb joint. That will slow down the arm pull so you need to find the optimal combination and strengthening the fingers, hand and the arm helps in the long term because with added power you can keep the front down with loose enough arm.

Another trick to ensure optimal arm speed and getting the front down is to not push the front down until the elbow starts to chop +- something again adjusted for optimal distance out of your form and physiology.

You can get pretty far with a front and rear equally high throw though. Past 400'. With decent apex heights too. The height can come from hyzer flips and/or rising arm pull. Which demands more wrist and disc orientation in the hand down angle to compensate for the arm rising angle.

Edit: The thumb is often forward enough even when it is a little toward the center of thumb neutral which is half over the wing half over the flight plate. For more thumb pressure=stronger grip=more distance potential try the Jenkins grip tilting the thumb almost vertical in the outermost section. And pressing down so that the flight plate bows down under the thumb. Unlike the Jenkinses you can still eave the base of the thumb over the flight plate for even more on top gripping power. There are four fingers under the disc vs one on top which side limits the grip pressure thus the distance potential the most?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:53 am

JR wrote:. For you the disc lies above the index finger when it should be underneath.


Can you elaborate on this? That is, should the rear joint of the index finger be on top of the disc plate? If that's the case I will mightily struggle with this just based on hand size.

I'm wondering if some of my field results are a consequence of just this, that is, with the grip adjustments I've made these past few weeks, I've notice noticable distance improvement with my mids - my buzzz and roc3 are flying out to 250 now, I even sent a buzzz 275 yesterday but my drivers are still stuck in that 260-280 range with the rare occasion that one hits 300-315. (interestingly enough, still the disc that I get the most distance with is the blizzard katana shown in the video, however I just throw it in practice so I don't have to chase down discs as often - but when that disc flys well, I get a really nice S-curve with consistantly the most distance) Pretty much all of my drivers (valk, beast, wraith, teebird, leapord) all do just about the same thing distancewise with occasionally the wraith stretching out a little further.

I only started working on getting above the crease yesterday (as that is when I found the thread and pics from beato) and as it was just about to get dark, I oly got about 25 throws in. What I did notice was considerably more height out of my valks and more of an "s-curve" flight. Does this indicate anything related to the grip or was it coincidence?

Also saw the video on where Climo is explaining his grip to someone at a clinic, I think I may try something like - from sitting at home, it feels a little like I can get thr thumb more forward with his grip. I asked my wife to try and rip the disc out of my hand last night and she couldn't come close with both hands when using his grip...

So how do you combat the short fingers?? Am I destined to a career of throwing leapords and mids?? Guess it's time to get really good at putting :)
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby seabas22 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:36 pm

Are you holding the disc rim with your finger tips? With short fingers that makes it hard to get more on top the disc. And yes with small fingers you will likely have grip issues with anything over speed 9 or have to find a way to grip it like marrying the index and middle finger as the rip, or some other type of grip.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... ipit.shtml
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:26 pm

seabas22 wrote:Are you holding the disc rim with your finger tips?


With my middle through pinkie, in order to get "above the seam" I have to curl in and use my finger tips - I just don't have nearly enough finger to hold with anything other than the pad of my index finger. When I'm "in the seam" I can go either way with my middle through pinkie and I tended to throw with the pad of my fingers against the rim. I have considerable more flexibility with either a buzzz or roc3.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby JR » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:56 am

The disc should lie under the inner joint of the index finger.

Check this out: hold the disc front down in your right hand on the right side of the disc. Put the left hand to the left side of the disc inserting the pinky to the normal position. One finger at a time work up to the middle finger. At this time you should not have problems in maintaining the front of the disc down even without the right hand holding the disc angled front down. Here comes the tricky part that is made harder with short fingers and lack of flexibility. Can you maneuver the index finger over the disc and curl it inside to hold the rim? If you can not does moving all the other fingers and hand as far toward the rear of the disc help in now curling the index finger to the rim? If it does not work try adjusting the height of the rear of the disc. If you still have problems try the Wiggins grip because the other index finger on top of the disc grip the Bonopane hurts when throwing.

Discs should fly lower when the front of the disc stays down so the first guess would be that trying out a new grip did not, at first, work as well for you than the older grip. If everything else was equal and you did not raise the arm in the pull or stay more weight back. 300' with TBs is limiting the lines options you have and at that power the Leopard is more versatile and the TB is better for right finishes and resisting turning over and winds. 275' Buzz is respectable and that means you should be able to get drivers much farther out and unlock control for longer discs power wise. As soon as you can get the grip sorted so that is the thing you need to work on most right now. Everything else than putts and approaches lose out the improvements because of the unoptimal grip. It is worse than you might think. If the grip is the weakest link and it seems to be changing anything else gives you incorrect answer. You might discard a helpful form change because the result is not better than now. When it would be with a proper grip. So your future improvement could be jeopardized from having grip problems.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:47 am

I'm going to hopefully hit the field tonight and see what I can see. I just measured and my index finger second joint is only 20 mm, where as my middle finger is 23mm so the Wiggin's grip may be more appropriate. I'm hoping to have enough time to see what the Climo and Wiggin's grips have to offer and see whether or not I can finally get the stupid nose down (or at least flat...)

Is it safe to assume that a weak grip that is nose down is better then a strong grip with the nose up?

Might just be time to start taking a serious approach to the forehand shot...
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby Stringbean » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:13 pm

Yeah, that is a safe assumption. I am sure your grip strength is enough to throw plenty far. Wouldn't be a bad thing to learn forehand too.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby bsnone1 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:33 pm

So may have put a few things together tonight at out at the field. Really wish I had the time to spend 3-4 hours a day digging through more of this stuff but alas working fulltime and going to school doesn't exactly leave a lot of daylight...

Anyway, I've realized that anything larger than a valk is just too big for me to get my hand around and still have my front finger on top of the disc. I worked through most of my discs tonight and was regularly getting the valk out to 300-315 feet with a nice S curve, the T-bird was going 275ish and the buzzz and roc3 were running out 260-270 fairly consistently. I even tossed an aviar 250 which I've never come close to before. I feel like I'm getting the disc flat - not quite down but certainly flat - I wasn't getting the big stall out shots nearly as often.

My plan is to start working from the hit backwards along with the secret technique. Hopefully, now that I feel like I'm getting a much more solid disc orientation I can start to build up power.

My misses tonight seemed to pull the disc hard left (LHBH) - often shooting the disc considerably further than I usually throw but substantially off target. I also seemed to turn my leopards over to the point that they were rollers - certainly not intentionally.

I'll keep the wider rim discs for now, hoping that maybe I can bring them into play once I start working on a forehand.

I ordered a few more discs to see if I can have some variety with the small(ish) rims. I'll be getting a Saint and an Orion LF to see if I can compliment the valks going forward.

I really appreciate all the feedback from everyone on here. I'm sure so much of this has been rehashed over and over again but this newbie is very appreciative. Hopefully I'll make some improvements and I'll record another vid in 6-8 weeks.
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Re: 3 Months in, time for a critique

Postby JR » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:17 pm

Depending on the plastic and condition of the Leo it may be turning over just from the added power (congratulations). Since the grip is different and you might have changed something else too for added power the timing may have changed to make you miss left too. There is also the matter of grip locks which tend to send the disc left for a lefty and at a higher speed than normally until you can get the same grip strength into a throw that moves properly timed and on the line. Meaning avoiding pulling the arm earlier than the final step lands on the ground and pulling the disc close to the chest.

A weaker well oriented grip might fly far but it is prone to slipping meaning missing right. Micro slips where the disc moves in the correct direction but won't pivot fully robs from ultimate distance but not many have the form or power to hold onto a disc at high power that way. I don't. By the way IIRC my index finger middle section is 16 mm long grr. And i toss 25 mm drivers without much trouble. Relatively speaking that is because i have trouble getting a full disc pivot. Going from mids to a Leo weakens my grip enough to have less complete pivot and the mids might be a hair shy of great performance too but percentage wise i lose out less distance with mids than i do with drivers.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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