Newbs bag needs critique

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Newbs bag needs critique

Postby south.texas.dead.i » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:24 pm

Image

I got two putters:
Omega super soft (close putts<5 ft and approach less than 100ft)
Eclipse glow anode

Second row midranges
Flying squirrel soft understable needs
Cobra harder understable disc
To buzzz my go to midrange
Comet another soft understable disc
Image

Drivers/fairway
Avengerss long straight driver
Xl straight fairway
Predator longer soft over stable finish
Monarch (new hopefully long soft understable finish)
Nuke long over stable discImage
Something I'm gonna try here is a makeshift flight chart for me
Image
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby keltik » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:38 am

I like what you did with your "flight chart". I think that should be a requirement for bag pictures. It enable you to see your overlap (quite literally).

Now for your theoretical overlaps. The Monarch and the A-SS should be doing the same things. I know the Z A-SS can be more stable than the D or ESP ones. It is still a good disc. I haven't thrown a Monarch in a few years so I'm going from memory.

the Nuke should be long and straight flying. Since it is OS for you it may be a bit too much disc for right now. once you get your form dialed in you will get a lot more play out of that one. ESP Nukes are flippy, mine are anyway.

the Cobra should be straighter unless yours is beat in. Regardless you don't really need it and the Comet and the Flying Squirrel. It sounds like the all three do the same thing for so I would say just pick one of the three for simplicity.

Everything else looks fine.
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Newbs bag needs critique

Postby south.texas.dead.i » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:19 am

What is something that would be in the place of that monarch? I'm looking for something that is more understable
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby andrew » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:17 am

Echoing the kudos on the visual flight chart. For example, it immediately shows you're underpowering the Nuke which couldn't have been done from the descriptions. Also interesting, although i don't know what it means, that you're getting your comet longer than your buzzz. Anyway, i'm going to steal that flight chart picture idea with my own bag....
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby keltik » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:28 am

south.texas.dead.i wrote:What is something that would be in the place of that monarch? I'm looking for something that is more understable


I implied that the AvengerSS and the Monarch should do the same lines. You may want to try a Pro-D or ESP Avenger SS. They are flippier.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:54 am

The AvengerSS was my first real driver. Was long for me for a while. Liked it enough to replace ProD with a Z. Very different disc in Z. Less understable, and not enough glide to be useful. I carry it as a roller only now.

My super understable slots are covered by a freakishly flippy Dx Beast, and a 150 Archangel. It's amazing what that archangel can do with a tailwind. It's also good for L to R shots in and through woods. Turns harder and faster than my Leopards.

If you can find a really lightweight Wraith, those are super understable. Our Academy had a 140 in Pink. If one did not know better, they would think I was throwing a roadrunner.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:35 am

south.texas.dead.i wrote:What is something that would be in the place of that monarch? I'm looking for something that is more understable


While not novel the presentation of how those discs fly in your bag setup is really kick ass and should be adopted as standard among all disc golfers. Mad props!!!

Archon or Vulcans especially the light ones should be more understable than the Monarch.

Andrew the Comet is longer than the Buzz much of the time. The less power you have the more often the Comet outflies the Buzz. I'm 400' golf distance thrower and most of the time the Comet is 10-30' longer than the Z Buzz for me. I have probably had a few times when my body works at an optimum and the form is better than average in field practice when i've somehow put more power into the disc. Meaning an hour to two of warming up firing in series to loosen up and warm up well and hone in the angles and apex height. I don't think i've gotten as optimally hot with Comets maxing it at 330' with sliding on the ground a little in the end. Buzz record is just under 350'. Normally especially when not warmed up and/or fatigued Buzz 300' needs a good rip and the Comet is just 10-20' beyond that with good throws.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:39 am

JR wrote:Archon or Vulcans especially the light ones should be more understable than the Monarch.


No way on the Archon. Not even close. Heck, not even Vulcan due to the power needs.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:59 am

I had not considered the power requirement of the Archon and you're right but the lightest Vulcans need way less power than the max weighters. 130s Blizzard Katanas are stupid understable. I bet power throwers can get them to barrel roll if 150x Vulcans aren't understable enough. 130s Katanas are the Stratuses/Optimizers/Maximizers of drivers in understability. Meaning phew that is understable just from breathing at it and look at it flip.

Well Monarchs come in low weights too so weight for weight the difference is not so large between a Monarch and a Vulcan. Monarchs are notorious for having wild stability variations. I've had 3 and one of them is light and all of them are much more HSS than my max weight Vulcans and especially more overstable than the very flippy 159 Star Vulcan i have.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:34 pm

I was talking apples to apples on weight.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:23 am

Apples to apples the Vulcan is less HSS than the Monarch.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:39 am

JR wrote:Apples to apples the Vulcan is less HSS than the Monarch.

Meh, they have the same HST values, and Vulcan is a 13 vs. 10 for the Monarch on speed. Objectively, it's a tie at best. Having thrown both, and not having the power for 13s, I can say the Monarch is way more understable for me.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:25 am

Innova numbers cough. Wide winged discs are hard to manufacture and everyone should know that the Monarch is even iffier mold than most. I would not mind seeing a more HSS Vulcan than mine in 159 or 175. At my power anyway the Vulcan flips more than the Monarch. If our discs are similar the discs would be way different in speed stability. Innova L wings are the best known offenders in stability changing drastically toward understability when speed or headwind is added. For example Starlite Bosses are more overstable than most Bosses but they are useless in hard winds. OTOH the same is true of most max weight Bosses in stiff headwinds and especially swirly gusts.

Ville Piippo has flatter than normal Bosses from the time the Boss was released and they are way way more HSS and noticeably earlier and harder fading with more power requirement. So he uses them FH into headwinds. He has thrown 500' into headwind FH so that says a lot about how much beefier those discs are vs normal Bosses. I've flipped normal max weight champ Bosses into headwinds with a little over 400' power. I can say it was not my form because it has happened more than once and one case was a hyzer flip into some wind that flipped flat immediately flying flat for 200' flipping 40+ degrees in under half second like it had been hit with a hammer. In calm weather max weight Bosses are too power hungry for me to control with a flat throw. They fall out of the sky early due to the fade kicking in too soon. Lighter Bosses go much farther for me. Speed stability.

Monarchs are notorious for flipping if the nose ain't flat. Push the wrist down and watch it flip. Winds play havoc with these too. It is the groove in the wing that gets odd when there is wind from two directions or in a headwind the onrushing speed gets too high. The funny thing is that i seem to have better Monarchs than most or my style of flat throws suits the monarch better than the forms of most others. Mine aren't flip machines with my form. I hate that disc not unlike the majority on this site that aren't old geezers. Something that i'm close to anyway...

Innova ratings are not objective descriptions of disc flight characteristics. They are approximations arrived at by throwing them and ranking the four figures against other discs of the same speed. Innova speed 13 turn is not the same as speed 10 turn necessarily. Even worse is the fact that the numbers are not always accurate.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:53 am

InBounds, brah. Besides, I've thrown them. Then there's the speed diff. I'll just add this to the ginormous list of instances where you have a different experience with discs than others. I mean, it's not even close. I can make a Monarch seek the ground as if it diving to hell. I can barely make a Vulcan flatten out.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:39 pm

No chart shows how the entire flight path changes with differing distance, spin rate and nose angle plus off axis torque. I wouldn't read much into you flipping the Monarchs because others do too and they are notorious for misbehaving if not thrown flat and clean. If you were to to flip a beefy disc then OAT would be the likely explanation here i'm not sure at all. The Monarch is not at all usable yard stick for cleanliness of form.

To me the Vulcans are real flippers like fast Sidewinders and my max distance with the 159 Star hit a wall at IIRC 430' s-curved. Normally 400-410' is tricky because it flips so much but with a mild anny after the flip 410' is pretty much guaranteed minimum. Too bad the hit rate is low due to the flippyness.

When i've had different results flight wise the most common cause has been others throwing faster than i do and from flight description with less spin than me. Speed and spin dominant throws are different and gyroscopics of the disc in straight and understable discs is influenced a lot by spin. And i'm not tops in spinning the disc vs the speed. With golf form (not using distance tricks) my record is 92 KPH at 20 revs per second. Avery Jenkins has thrown way farther with a quarter higher radar result than my radar result with the same revs. So the forces acting on the discs are very different with more understable flight behavior supporting speed for Avery with the same force of the gyroscopics resisting turn. That is why i throw Beasts straight and the big boys flip them.

I'd like to know how far do you get your Vulcans and with what kind of flight path and apex height to compare where we differ. And don't dramatize i don't have that different results to most experienced throwers especially when we factor in different distances we throw to. Ginormous pfft.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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