Another one with elbow pain

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Another one with elbow pain

Postby luma » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:10 am

Ive played around 40 holes on three consecutive days last week, and on the third day with my first throw I noticed that while following through, my right elbow really hurt (BH throw). I have to say that I didn't warm up and also that it was pretty cold (around -2 °C). Today (2 days after the tournament) I went out again with my little brother to just try his new disc for a couple of throws in the snow, and again, I just wanted to throw it once, did so and had that pain again while following through. I didn't throw full power but again I didn't warm up and its now -5 °C. The elbow really hurts the moment that my elbow completely straightens and I can still feel a minimal pain right now (30 mins after the throw) when I straighten my elbow completely.

Three reasons for it that a newbie like me could imagine...:
1) I have to warm up my elbow. I just don't know how. Is there any way to do this?
2) I should do some workout for any elbow muscles, just cant imagine how...
3) It's my form. I remember having read somwhere, that in the follow through, you are supposed to turn your hand in a way so that the palm faces down towards the gorund. My palm is not facing towards the gorund, but rather 90° to the ground (it faces a little right of the target at the end of the follow through).

Im 20 now, so I should think that it's not any age related problem, but I would really like to solve that issue as soon as possible as changes in my form are not too difficult yet now (just playing 5 months).

Thanks for any ideas!

ps: I loooove (and I am soooooo good in) explaining stuff in English, that I probably wouldnt even be able to explain in my native language... :D
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby bcr123psu » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:34 am

I'm going to preface anything I say (or anybody else for that matter) with the simple truth that sound medical advice is best gained from a medical professional and not from an internet board. That said, the pain in the elbow could be a symptom of a weak shoulder that can't properly slow down your arm after the hit, thus causing damage to the next hinge down the line: your elbow. After several stints in physical therapy and occupational therapy for chronic medial epicondylitis (golfer's elbow), I know this is the case for me:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/golfers-elbow/DS00713

There are braces available for tennis/golfer's elbow should help limit & compress the area of the elbow that is experiencing discomfort, but that would just be treating the symptom and not the cause. To help address the issue in the long term:

1. Check your form and make sure that you're not throwing with your arm out like a trebuchet (keep your arm/body compact when you throw...think figure skater during a fast spin)
2. Work on strengthening the muscles in your shoulder...not just your deltoids, but the scaps, rotator cuff, etc. This will give your arm the ability to slow down after a throw without your arm getting out past your elbow.
3. Stretch.

If the issue continues, go see an ortho. Internet advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby luma » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:00 am

Reading this, it might rather be a tennis elbow as its on the back of the elbow (exactly where the forearm meets that hard outside elbow-part. But now that you say golfers elbow, I think I have already experienced it when I was playing a little too much golf all the time. Anyway, I think I will get one of those braces, but first see a doctor today or tomorrow.
Thanks!
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby bcr123psu » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:51 am

FWIW, good luck explaining the motions of a disc golf drive to an ortho. I had to show them YouTube vids of pros driving to give them an idea of what I was trying to achieve (and then show them what I was actually doing).
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby seabas22 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:47 pm

I've had a few spouts of golfer's elbow...if your palm is facing up, it's the inner side of the elbow/pinky side, it would hurt to extend the elbow straight. These spouts weren't really due to throwing, but from trimming fairways out with loppers. I saw my physical therapist and he did some ultrasonic treatment and tissue release, just one or two sessions helped a ton. The brace would help some, but it's not a treatment and it's cumbersome. A video of you throwing would also help to see if you are doing something that is not good, and could be the cause.
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby luma » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:05 pm

Well, my elbow is perfectly fine right now (about 6h after I threw the disc today), it doesn't hurt at all when I straighten it or do anything else. It just really hurts when my arm suddenly straightens like it does during the throw, and that is when I experience most of the pain. It feels like a hinge that can be opened max. 180° and you open it quickly so it bangs against its 180° limitation. And if you do it too often or too heavy, it will wear down...if you understand what I try to say :)

Now to the serious part...don't watch if you're not mentally stable and please be aware of eye cancer :shock: no seriously, these were from 2012/12/21 (didn't have any newer ones here) - I've done a lot with weight shifting and all that stuff since then and improved on some of it, but the arm/elbow motion is still pretty much the same.



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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby seabas22 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:39 pm

I hope you don't fully extend the elbow. From the bottom vid I'd say your arm is taking more abuse than it should. Improving your posture and using the hips properly in balance should help with weight transfer. Transfer then rotate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zByUYQnVdY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTM9bfD54
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby JR » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:41 pm

I'd rest a while and throw fewer holes per day and have an off day in between throwing days. The lowest video had the thumb pointing up and it should point down after a counter clockwise rotation. That pushes the shoulder blade back allowing it to move over the back muscles allowing a longer more gradually slowing down follow through that does not shake the tendons of the arm as hard. That should help some. While helping in getting constantly correct hyzer angles.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby luma » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:02 am

Well...I just let the arm snap along loose, which means my forarm bone "bangs" against my elbow joint.
So, i guess it's two main things to prevent injury in my case by improving my form:
1) don't fully extend the elbow (?) - so you actually stop just before it's fully extended, just like you never fully extend your arm/leg or anything when doing workout ?
2) on my follow through my right hand has to face in the opposite direction - thumb down, not up (that's going to be interesting to not do that too early and throw beautiful 45°-up-in-the-air-shots :D )

(3) i'm still working on that weight shift/rotation thing, I think it still needs a while, but from what Ive learned and now from what youve said it has become much better by now)

...I always thought that (ball) golf was complicated with all the stuff that you can do wrong during your swing there. But I have to say there are nearly much more things to know in DG. I would say that I nearly know everything about a golfswing and all the other stuff there, and i would think I dont even know two thirds of DG stuff, and its pretty much the same amount like the golf stuff. But one thing that is really great about DG - you can already play pretty fine with not knowing all that stuff :)
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby JR » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:13 am

Over extension of any joints is harmful. I have a genetic problem for disc golf and volleyball in that my elbows don't extend straight. So i have no idea if you should stop the forearm short of straight. You should stop the extension of the forearm to elbow straight at the latest because over extension can cripple you for life. At least the lowest video of you did not have over extension of the elbow. I don't know if it happens for you.

If you read the laws of Newton regarding movements it is a good idea to stop the elbow at some point late in the throw when the disc is well closer to the target than the torso. It transfers momentum to the wrist whipping forward. And the same reason means that stopping the wrist also launches the disc pivot faster than would happen otherwise. The nasty thing about trying to stop (won't happen completely) the elbow and the wrist is that it shakes the muscles and tendons in the arm possibly causing tendonitis as in tennis of golf elbow. I took high speed video of my arm years ago and the diameter of the forearm increased about 50 % in the worst part and the shock wave of the movements shook fat and other tissues back and forth in the forearm. The wave went from the elbow to the wrist, bounce back to the elbow and bounced back from there to the wrist before attenuating enough to not move the arm tissues a lot. I've gained power since so the feeling is worse. 5x women's open world champion Elaine King uses a tennis elbow brace and Avery Jenkins uses a fabric band that squeezes his forearm to noticeably smaller diameter where it lies. It is not a tennis elbow brace though but i think it still helps in lessening the muscles and tendons shaking for a degree of safety.

When i threw with a tennis elbow brace i had to tighten it too much to cause an inflammation by itself just to keep it from flying off. Grr.

The timing of the counter clockwise rotation of the arm happens just after the disc has ripped out. Too early rotation messes up the hyzer and nose angle. It is one of the easier things to learn. Unfortunately for me being an ex competition swimmer and lifting stuff high at work my back muscles are large enough to hamper free movement of the arm in the follow through if the muscles are stiff and often they are. On the worst days the muscles won't loosen up with massage, stretching, warming up and throwing for hours.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby luma » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:22 am

I don't extend the elbow further than that, but I think it's a motion that I'm doing during my throw. Ive just been outside again and playing at the snow covered parking lot of the cementary in front of our house. I did some 80-120' throws and it already hurt doing that. It really feels like it's a strange quick movement that I do, which is straightening the arm very fast to get the spin I want. I will also go see mr. doc later, but I don't think he'll be able to tell me what to do with my form to prevent it 8)
Anyway, I tried to stop my elbow short of straight but I really wasn't able to...I really start thinking it might be a different issue, because all the slow-mo throws I watched up on YouTube (those Innova drives with McBeth and Guthrie oder Nate Krahn from the Patapsco), they do the same thing that hurts my elbow. Straightening the arm while snapping and they really don't turn their thumb down until they released the disc. And at that point, the movement doesn't cause me pain anymore. It's just that quick snap release that hurts...and what I really wonder about is why it was gone after a few throws every tournament day last weekend...

So, Ill go see the doctor in about an hour and see what I find out, maybe there is some information that can be useful to some other players experiencing elbow pain, so Ill share that later
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby JR » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:31 am

So the major cause probably is not a lack of follow through. And yes the thumb down rotation starts immediately after the disc has ripped out of the fingers. Straightening the elbow for snapping sounds bad that is like tendon trouble. You could have overdone training or ripping. Cold helps and very mild movement that does not necessarily need to be done with the arm. As long as you can get the blood flowing bringing oxygen to the arm tissues to help prevent inflammations and transporting away whatever gunk is there now. That muscle usage byproduct is a great base for inflammation.

Once your arm is fine and you can throw again there is a chance of warming up the elbow area. Putting the palm against a tree or a wall or whatever keep the arm straight and in place and twisting with the body counter clockwise for the right arm you'll stretch the right pec and the elbow area. Another move that is very good is to raise the arm straight up bending the elbow so that the hand touches the shoulder blade and then with the other arm pull the hand down and/or back. A good warming up movement is to bring the upper arm away from the body and swinging the forearm and hand around in a circle going close to or at the limit of flexibility. Mirror of a golf swing and golf swing arm movement helps too and a little arm shaking from the shoulder joint with a loose arm helps some too. They work the best when performed together.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby PMantle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:34 am

seabas22 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTM9bfD54

Shawn C. is fantastic. Other than video lessons of my own swing, I've gotten more from his vids than anything else over a 20 year or soperiod.
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby luma » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:01 am

Allright...so Im lucky to have the best sports doctor in around 100 km, and after pushing around my elbow a little bit and feeling it, he said that it was just a little sore because I played too much. The other thing is that my tendon(s) in my elbow(s) are a little shortened and I am supposed to stretch them to not always have pressure on my arm muscles and elbow. To stretch it, just do the thing that JR explained 2 posts above. Put your palm against a door or anything so you can hold on to there, then turn your body away so the arm is behind your body. Turn your body further and further and try to get the feeling of stretching in your elbow area and hold it for 30 secs (or you only stretch your muscles...). He said you should gat to an angle of less than 90° between the outstretched arm and your upper body.
So I will do that stretching, also a little more warmup before playing, and I will leave my follow through the way that it is for now, as I still have to focus on other stuff while throwing. As soon as I can concentrate on other things I will try to do that turning down of the palm.

ps: the doctor is also member of our town council (hope thats the word) and he told me we will most likely get our 3 baskets in our city's park - yeeeeha! :D
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Re: Another one with elbow pain

Postby Mark Ellis » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:59 pm

I am not a doctor. This in no way stops me from giving medical advice. :lol:

Do not clear your garbage disposal with your fingers while it is turned on.

Oh, back to the topic: I have had and cured tennis elbow and many other maladies. For inflammation problems, ice is magic. Part of your elbow problem is inflammation. Whatever else you do, ice 20 minutes on 20 minutes off several times each night while the pain persists. 30 on and 30 off is fine too.
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