Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby turso » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:28 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:
JHern wrote:
bcr123psu wrote:... _____ Distance, _____stable, _____ Glide...

To compensate for low air density, use lighter plastic and bring some under-stable discs that will turn over more easily. And bring older slower discs, too...I was always amazed at how far I could throw a Comet at the Tahoe courses (they're going to bid for 2015 Worlds).


If Tahoe is high altitude then I pray they don't get Worlds.

No offense to Tahoe (or any high altitude location). I played Denver a few years back and none of my discs flew even close to normally. I don't need to learn a bunch of new courses AND re-learn to throw every disc in my bag.



You make me slightly disappointed by this comment, pros need to adapt to the circumstances, and it's not like the physics of it work randomly. In my opinion it's a nice addition to the challenge of the elements, I wish we had something else than flat ground in finland so I could experience the difference in flight.
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby JHern » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:19 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:If Tahoe is high altitude then I pray they don't get Worlds.

No offense to Tahoe (or any high altitude location). I played Denver a few years back and none of my discs flew even close to normally. I don't need to learn a bunch of new courses AND re-learn to throw every disc in my bag.


Tahoe is 7000-8000' altitude. You're crazy Mark, Tahoe is simply the world's best disc golf destination, I dream about it all year long even though I live in Santa Cruz.

turso wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:If Tahoe is high altitude then I pray they don't get Worlds...

...pros need to adapt to the circumstance...it's a nice addition to the challenge of the elements...


Exactly, how well do you know how a disc flies? This is part of the mastery of the sport of disc golf.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I thought Pittsburgh had 2015 Pro Worlds. So maybe Tahoe is going for 2015 Am Worlds?


I don't know the details, I think Am 2015, Pro 2016.
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Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:47 am

JHern wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:If Tahoe is high altitude then I pray they don't get Worlds.

No offense to Tahoe (or any high altitude location). I played Denver a few years back and none of my discs flew even close to normally. I don't need to learn a bunch of new courses AND re-learn to throw every disc in my bag.


Tahoe is 7000-8000' altitude. You're crazy Mark, Tahoe is simply the world's best disc golf destination, I dream about it all year long even though I live in Santa Cruz.

turso wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:If Tahoe is high altitude then I pray they don't get Worlds...

...pros need to adapt to the circumstance...it's a nice addition to the challenge of the elements...


Exactly, how well do you know how a disc flies? This is part of the mastery of the sport of disc golf.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I thought Pittsburgh had 2015 Pro Worlds. So maybe Tahoe is going for 2015 Am Worlds?


I don't know the details, I think Am 2015, Pro 2016.


Adapting is part of the game but not all adaptations are rewarding. Japan has the 150 class limit. This is one of the reasons I have never been tempted to play the Japan Open. The flutter on my forehand makes 150 class discs into scud missiles. Sure I could spend months trying to figure it out but what long term benefit would I see? Like everyone else as soon as I returned those 150 class discs would be put in a box and my regular discs gratefully restored to the bag.

I spent a week in Denver (the Mile High City it calls itself), playing every day. Every disc flies as though it is MUCH more overstable. So my primary discs became meathooks and useless. My flippiest discs flew straight and much farther than normal. Nothing in my bag would turn over unless I forced it. Nothing flew the way it normally did.

For a World Championships hundreds of players arrive for the tournament, often at the last minute, due to scheduling limitations imposed by obligation and expense.

If we are seeking odd challenges there are many ways to accomplish this; One disc tournaments, Superclass, 150 class, putter only, etc. If you want weirder then tie everyone's wrists together or blindfold them. Those are challenges, too, just not very rewarding.

Worlds should be a test of skill, not a gimmick tournament.
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:45 am

It will be interesting to see the discussions regarding a Worlds bid from any site above 5000' elevation. I know after Pro Worlds in Flagstaff the general feeling was that a World Championship should not be held at that altitude or above primarily for the reason stated by Mark. There were players who also experienced adjustment and health issues due to the altitude and Worlds includes players up to 80 years old. Most players don't have the time to come a week in advance of Worlds and adjust to the conditions and learn how to throw their discs in the thin air. No problem hosting any other pro events including NTs at that elevation, with the exception of Majors, since players have a choice to attend or not. With Worlds and other Majors as once per year events, there's no choice if you want to go for those titles. I think the PDGA might be more likely to favorably view an Am Worlds bid since variety of experiences seems to rank higher in the way Ams generally view the various tradeoffs for Worlds venues.
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby JHern » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:04 am

Mark Ellis wrote:...Japan has the 150 class limit...


Actually, 159.9g

Mark Ellis wrote:This is one of the reasons I have never been tempted to play the Japan Open...what long term benefit would I see?


Long term benefit? Sheesh, have you forgotten what this is all about?

I hear that the Japan Open is simply the best disc golf tournament on planet Earth, in every way possible. If that's not enough to satisfy you, or to provide the long term benefit of having experienced the greatest our sport has to offer, while also visiting one of the most amazing places on Earth, fair enough.

Mark Ellis wrote:...Worlds should be a test of skill, not a gimmick tournament.


Tell that to the tens of thousands of disc golfers in the western US, who have learned how to adapt to altitude changes, and which is firmly ingrained into their skill set. It is a part of disc golf, whether flatlanders like you realize it, or not. The one to judge whether something is a skill is not the one who doesn't even possess it.

Air is what supports the flight of a disc, it is not a gimmick. Air is not a fixed thing, it is fluid and ever-changing (like wind, weather, and climate). Changing air density is like adding another dimension to your bag, it opens an entire new world and dimension of behaviors that you can learn to exploit to your advantange.

As far as disc adjustments, it's actually quite easy, get your beat plastic out, your turn-over and roller discs are money at altitude. After a few dozen throws you'll recalibrate and be ready to go.

Anyways Mark, you didn't come in 2011 when Worlds was at sea level, and perhaps you're not likely to attend, regardless of altitude.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby JHern » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:43 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:...I know after Pro Worlds in Flagstaff the general feeling was that a World Championship should not be held at that altitude or above...


I know that there is a growing sentiment among some touring pros that Worlds should be held in perfectly controlled conditions for which every throw is simply performing a given sequence of shots under ideal footing and calm weather conditions, no trees, no rocks, no wind, great footing everywhere, no altitude, etc.. Heck, why do we need to even play on a course if we want to go this direction? For Worlds, we could instead simply set up a series of large movable circular hanging hoops in an indoor climate-controlled stadium at pre-defined altitude and select a champion based on who can go through the motions of performing a sequence of shots through various hoop arrangements...after all, what's the difference between that and the direction some people want to take disc golf championships? This growing sentiment is unique to disc golf, do you ever hear golfers at the AT&T Pebble Beach whining about the wind and rain and wishing they could just swing their clubs indoors, instead?

What makes disc golf better than that, and also makes it a great analogy for life, is that on a real course in the real outdoors: shit happens. Just as in life, everything can change in an instant, and you have to learn to adjust and overcome. Such changes might be temporary, lasting a few minutes, or may occur over hours, days, or even for the rest of your life.

Disc golf is an outdoor sport, in which you have to face the elements, you get to spend a little time in the open air, perhaps even a little closer to nature (or in the case of Tahoe, a lot closer). In an inherently outdoor sport, should a Champion be crowned who can only play well under conditions most comfortable to themselves, only? Or is it better to ensure that a true Champion must face and overcome a variety of challenges which spans the entire spectrum of skill sets in their sport, prove that they can get out of trouble when they find it, and keep doing it for the entire length of a tournament?

Also, is it fair to exclude a particular skill set from ever being tested again at Worlds?

Chuck Kennedy wrote:...players who also experienced adjustment and health issues due to the altitude and Worlds includes players up to 80 years old...


Last time we went up to Tahoe my wife was 8 months pregnant, and we had similar concerns. But it turns out that Tahoe is not so high in altitude that it is a very serious concern (we're not talking about Mt Whitney), in fact there are many retirement communities and the elderly get along quite well in that area. You can see busloads of grey hair passing through Yosemite, Sequoia, Kings Canyon, Tahoe, Lassen, etc., all the time, travelling directly from western California and driving right up into the mountains from sea to sky.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Most players don't have the time to come a week in advance of Worlds and adjust to the conditions and learn how to throw their discs in the thin air.


It only takes a day or two, after which your body is completely acclimated and if you didn't already know, then you've had a chance to see how your bag flies in thin air.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby keltik » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:53 am

So if my dream of hosting a Pro tournament in Central Mexico comes true no pros would come because of the elevation (~6000 ft)?
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:00 am

We'll see what happens. All I posted was speculation on what will be discussed. The evolution of this sport is gradually defining what the boundaries are to define the Worlds versus the sport versus the recreational game. Is "air thinner than X" a defining boundary or not? It was tested at Flagstaff. The next step will be to see if it will formally be defined as a boundary for top level competition if Tahoe bids.
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:03 am

keltik wrote:So if my dream of hosting a Pro tournament in Central Mexico comes true no pros would come because of the elevation (~6000 ft)?

If the money is there, they'll be there.
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby keltik » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:17 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
keltik wrote:So if my dream of hosting a Pro tournament in Central Mexico comes true no pros would come because of the elevation (~6000 ft)?

If the money is there, they'll be there.


Yeah that's what I thought, money talks and bullshit walks...
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:55 pm

JHern wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:...Worlds should be a test of skill, not a gimmick tournament.


Tell that to the tens of thousands of disc golfers in the western US, who have learned how to adapt to altitude changes, and which is firmly ingrained into their skill set. It is a part of disc golf, whether flatlanders like you realize it, or not. The one to judge whether something is a skill is not the one who doesn't even possess it.

Air is what supports the flight of a disc, it is not a gimmick. Air is not a fixed thing, it is fluid and ever-changing (like wind, weather, and climate). Changing air density is like adding another dimension to your bag, it opens an entire new world and dimension of behaviors that you can learn to exploit to your advantange.

As far as disc adjustments, it's actually quite easy, get your beat plastic out, your turn-over and roller discs are money at altitude. After a few dozen throws you'll recalibrate and be ready to go.

Anyways Mark, you didn't come in 2011 when Worlds was at sea level, and perhaps you're not likely to attend, regardless of altitude.


JHern,

I was not trying to insult you or your course or your altitude, just relating my opinion.

Maybe your skills are well beyond mine but making the adjustment to high altitude was not easy for me. It felt like I was throwing random unknown discs and not knowing what they might do until I saw them in flight. And not a single disc in my bag was flippy enough for controlled anhyzers. It was like a weird dream where my shots refused to go where I wanted them to.

In Denver I was playing with some locals and a guy sees me spraying all over and says, "So I saw your videos. Did you used to be good before you got old or injured or whatever happened?" I laughed. It seemed a better answer than crying. :D

It is one thing to adapt to weather and topography and courses, all expected for a Worlds. It is another thing to relearn every disc in your bag and a new stack of ultra-flippy discs. For those who live in altitude and have developed those unique skills it would be a huge advantage. And an equal disadvantage for everyone else.

I plan for Worlds every year. Sometimes obligations interfere. In 2015 I turn 60 so I am looking forward to that.
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby veganray » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:58 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:Maybe your skills are well beyond mine…

Don't forget, he's also much smarter. :roll:
Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.


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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby BudB » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:02 pm

Several "flatlanders" come up and play just fine in the Sierra Tahoe series, winning their share of the overall divisions. (We're @ 6000ft btw)
One thought that came to mind is that they were all backhand-dominant players. I wonder if possibly different spin on a forehand shot would make the transition more noticeable.
And one overlooked benefit of playing in Tahoe - No Bugs!
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby Mark Ellis » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:25 am

JHern wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:...Worlds should be a test of skill, not a gimmick tournament.


Tell that to the tens of thousands of disc golfers in the western US, who have learned how to adapt to altitude changes, and which is firmly ingrained into their skill set. It is a part of disc golf, whether flatlanders like you realize it, or not. The one to judge whether something is a skill is not the one who doesn't even possess it.

Air is what supports the flight of a disc, it is not a gimmick. Air is not a fixed thing, it is fluid and ever-changing (like wind, weather, and climate). Changing air density is like adding another dimension to your bag, it opens an entire new world and dimension of behaviors that you can learn to exploit to your advantange.

As far as disc adjustments, it's actually quite easy, get your beat plastic out, your turn-over and roller discs are money at altitude. After a few dozen throws you'll recalibrate and be ready to go.


I have given this topic considerable thought and have changed my mind on it. Jhern is right. If everyone who lives at altitude can figure it out then I should be able to as well. Next time I visit thin air I am going to bring ultraflippy discs along. Beyond the shock of everything flying differently my problem was the lack of discs flippy enough for the conditions. Are any paper plates PDGA legal?
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Re: Δ in Altitude/Temp/Humidity Make Discs Fly _____ ?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:34 am

Lots of actual Frisbees are PDGA legal. Maybe try an UltraStar on those big downhill shots.
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