Newbs bag needs critique

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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:11 pm

JR wrote:No chart shows how the entire flight path changes with differing distance, spin rate and nose angle plus off axis torque. I wouldn't read much into you flipping the Monarchs because others do too and they are notorious for misbehaving if not thrown flat and clean. If you were to to flip a beefy disc then OAT would be the likely explanation here i'm not sure at all. The Monarch is not at all usable yard stick for cleanliness of form.

To me the Vulcans are real flippers like fast Sidewinders and my max distance with the 159 Star hit a wall at IIRC 430' s-curved. Normally 400-410' is tricky because it flips so much but with a mild anny after the flip 410' is pretty much guaranteed minimum. Too bad the hit rate is low due to the flippyness.

When i've had different results flight wise the most common cause has been others throwing faster than i do and from flight description with less spin than me. Speed and spin dominant throws are different and gyroscopics of the disc in straight and understable discs is influenced a lot by spin. And i'm not tops in spinning the disc vs the speed. With golf form (not using distance tricks) my record is 92 KPH at 20 revs per second. Avery Jenkins has thrown way farther with a quarter higher radar result than my radar result with the same revs. So the forces acting on the discs are very different with more understable flight behavior supporting speed for Avery with the same force of the gyroscopics resisting turn. That is why i throw Beasts straight and the big boys flip them.

I'd like to know how far do you get your Vulcans and with what kind of flight path and apex height to compare where we differ. And don't dramatize i don't have that different results to most experienced throwers especially when we factor in different distances we throw to. Ginormous pfft.

Why do you bring up variables? You assert that a Vulcan is more understable than a Monarch. It just cannot be. Hell, even Innova compares the Monarch to a Roadrunner. Oh, and stop ignoring the speed. I have no idea what most of the above is even trying to say.
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Newbs bag needs critique

Postby south.texas.dead.i » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:00 am

What is a more understable disc than the monarch I'm thinking about trying out a mamba.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:10 am

south.texas.dead.i wrote:What is a more understable disc than the monarch I'm thinking about trying out a mamba.

Mamba is. So is the Archangel. Have you checked out Inbounds? You can arrange the chart by both high and low speed stability. May not be dead on, as no one chart can be given the different plastics and variances, but I find it very useful.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:57 pm

PMantle wrote:
JR wrote:No chart shows how the entire flight path changes with differing distance, spin rate and nose angle plus off axis torque. I wouldn't read much into you flipping the Monarchs because others do too and they are notorious for misbehaving if not thrown flat and clean. If you were to to flip a beefy disc then OAT would be the likely explanation here i'm not sure at all. The Monarch is not at all usable yard stick for cleanliness of form.

To me the Vulcans are real flippers like fast Sidewinders and my max distance with the 159 Star hit a wall at IIRC 430' s-curved. Normally 400-410' is tricky because it flips so much but with a mild anny after the flip 410' is pretty much guaranteed minimum. Too bad the hit rate is low due to the flippyness.

When i've had different results flight wise the most common cause has been others throwing faster than i do and from flight description with less spin than me. Speed and spin dominant throws are different and gyroscopics of the disc in straight and understable discs is influenced a lot by spin. And i'm not tops in spinning the disc vs the speed. With golf form (not using distance tricks) my record is 92 KPH at 20 revs per second. Avery Jenkins has thrown way farther with a quarter higher radar result than my radar result with the same revs. So the forces acting on the discs are very different with more understable flight behavior supporting speed for Avery with the same force of the gyroscopics resisting turn. That is why i throw Beasts straight and the big boys flip them.

I'd like to know how far do you get your Vulcans and with what kind of flight path and apex height to compare where we differ. And don't dramatize i don't have that different results to most experienced throwers especially when we factor in different distances we throw to. Ginormous pfft.

Why do you bring up variables? You assert that a Vulcan is more understable than a Monarch. It just cannot be. Hell, even Innova compares the Monarch to a Roadrunner. Oh, and stop ignoring the speed. I have no idea what most of the above is even trying to say.


I described what influences the flight of the disc since you obviously don't know enough yet. Perhaps you should reread and try to understand what speed stability means. You have some learning to do regarding stability.

Speed has a lot to do with how stable a disc is and power requirement does not always go hand in hand with the speed of the disc. Have you thrown a lot of different discs? There are way more overstable putters than some drivers and vice versa. Speed and stability are not directly linked and there are more understable speed 13 discs than speed 3s. The fact that the Vulcan is faster does not in any way mean that given enough oomph the Vulcan could not be more understable than many slower discs the Monarch included.

Power requirement comes into play here and a Vulcan at 30 MPH might very well be more overstable than the Monarch but for me anyway with my discs 57-59 MPH tops throws transform the Vulcan toward more understability at a greater pace than what happens to the Monarch. That is the definition of speed stability.

Then there is the matter of huge production variations between discs and all the discs that come from Innova are flown here a long time and at times the discs get changed. They try to combat that by putting those paper tape pieces under the discs. Sometimes it is not enough.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:01 pm

:lol: Look, it's perfectly fine to just say, I was wrong.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:07 pm

Are you trolling or hard of understanding? I have already written the explanation and i'm sorry to burst your bubble by saying you are wrong and you can prove it to yourself easily by taking an overstable putter like a Pig or a Zone and throwing the faster Monarch and Vulcan against it and then think of speed and stability again vs what i've already written. I will not waste my time with this because you need to do your home work since the data has been already supplied. All that is needed now is for you to think and read and test different discs. You could give your Monarch and Vulcan for a long thrower to throw or wait for a good bit of headwind and see if the relative stability of the discs switch. It may not if one or both discs are different to my discs. It happens all the time. Disc golf manufacturers are not making the discs consistently.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:25 pm

Okay
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:23 am

I'm happy to clarify and word things differently if the above descriptions did not click right away. The only demand i have is that you are willing to try and try to put in the effort that is required to understand so the first step is to reread all my replies. Wording things differently is no problem different people learn differently and often times it takes different ways to form replies to get the relevant information across. And we are here to help. I'm happy to help but this is probably not the correct thread as this discussion is thread jacking far off the original post.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:05 am

JR wrote:The only demand i have is that you are willing to try and try to put in the effort that is required to understand so the first step is to reread all my replies. .


Yeah, I'm just not capable of that. It's truly painful. Your wall of text still is off putting, and there's no rhyme or reason behind your punctuation. If this were an assignment, you'd be asked to start over. Now, I realize you have the shitty side of the debate, but we all get that sometimes. That's no excuse for attacks or the building of straw men.

I've laid out both objective and subjective reasoning for the proposition that Vulcan's are not more overstable than Monarchs. I'd describe what you've done, but honestly, it defies description. You should probably just place me ignore, or just move on to your next bizarre description of disc flight.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:10 am

Try this: Put your Monarch and Vulcan in the hands of a long thrower and observe.

You might find that the Monarch may well be more overstable than the Vulcan at 30 maybe even 40 MPH but approach 60 and the the overstability may flip. Of course that thrower needs to know the odd nose and hyzer angle issues with the Monarch. It is a different kind of disc compared to most thanks to the groove.

You don't read or need to dig into things deep often do you? If you cannot manage the short pieces of data how do you go through a newspaper let alone something meaningful? Since you draw conclusions without real data and reject opposition incorrectly branding it as a straw man you have not learned anything. That means your bag building lies on shaky ground and your ability to create different flight paths is compromised because you are not aware of all the phenomena that change the flight.

Nobody can understand the facts for you unless you hire a caddy to be with you each time. Have it your way i have no need to make you a better player or a wiser man but it is insulting to be called to be making straw men after putting in effort to help you. Especially by an ill informed lazy guy that cannot be bothered to learn fairly simple things.

Thanks for wasting my time trying to help you. Biting the hand that feeds you, well good luck.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:52 am

:lol:

Is this free?
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Newbs bag needs critique

Postby south.texas.dead.i » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:11 pm

Are we still referring to my bag? :p
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:31 am

south.texas.dead.i wrote:Are we still referring to my bag? :p


No so i bowed out and let him gather more data to perhaps one day realize that observing oneself only may bias the conclusions. If he's smart enough to observe or grow as a thrower and and experience what more speed does to the behavior of different discs.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby PMantle » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:55 am

JR wrote:
south.texas.dead.i wrote:Are we still referring to my bag? :p


No so i bowed out and let him gather more data to perhaps one day realize that observing oneself only may bias the conclusions. If he's smart enough to observe or grow as a thrower and and experience what more speed does to the behavior of different discs.

The data is there. You just can't admit you're wrong. This one isn't even close. Why you have to be so stubborn is baffling.
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Re: Newbs bag needs critique

Postby JR » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:39 am

Private message me if you want to continue let us not threadjack more. Besides i think you are annoying and not aware of how off you are and worst of all think too much of what you think you know and what is enough for correct analysis. I really do not want to waste my time with you. There is more to life than bending you back straight. I really liked your debate with JHern the other day. That shows you are very good at ignoring logic and lacking analysis skills. Poor you. It seems to me that you don't care that the people you are arguing against are more experienced and well informed and possibly better performing than you. Your choice just don't wonder if they don't force you to learn the things they know to make you better. They obviously know something better judging from better results. JHern has a PhD.

You don't act like someone who knows his elbow from his ass when it comes to thinking straight. Sorry to be blunt i'm not trying to be hurtful is just call the situation like i see it. I think you fit the saying one fool can ask more than ten wise can answer. Everyone is born without knowing a thing and fools born stay fools as long as they don't learn or listen. It is pointless for a fool to ask if he does not listen. If he listened he would learn to not be a fool after all. The flip side is that it is even worse for the ten wise persons to answer the fool if they could do something useful in the meantime. That is why scientists often don't want to discuss things with others than colleagues. Peers are likely to get something wrong and laypersons are dangerous armed with information they are not equipped to understand and apply. Like giving a monkey a grenade because sooner or later the pin comes out. I am not calling you a monkey but i suspect you are too close to a fool and it is not as bad as it sounds because not all fools stay fools. After all even wise people started out as fools and it is better to start learning late than never. It is a decision.

For learning i suggest observation of a big armed thrower smashing your discs well farther than you throw. If they don't act like i described it at sea level it still may not be just the discs. I have thrown discs more cleanly than some and some discs are difficult for me to release cleanly consistently. I don't always feel the disc leaving uncleanly from my hand but it would be odd to have Vulcans scrape the fingers each time without feeling it. Considering Comet record is 330' without any flipping and that is a disc that shows every flaw without fail. The other thrower may be able to spin the discs more and i have no clue how sensitive those two disc are to spin and if your spin and spin to speed ratio differs in your favor. From what others say of Monarchs on this site i've had the least problems with it. So obviously YMMV. The discs do vary a lot and without you sending me your discs i cannot say if they do differ from mine.

The answer to me not giving in and being stubborn is easy. Your newness makes you think your current power and form is the be all end all of reality of how those two discs fly. It is not and i have already described why and how. You ignoring that annoys me and you can leave it at that. I'd love to. Letting flasehoods spread leads to extinction. Many liars have tried that. There are many practicing lying about dangerous things all the time and the US wages war because of that your economy sucks and thousands have died as a result. Lies and untruths have to combated everywhere. Or accept your death penalty for no other reason than it pleases a liar. No thanks.

If you insist on not knowing anything about disc golf and ignoring reality move over to www.discgolfcoursereview.com you'll find many friends there.

You are dead wrong about how my discs fly for me anyway your discs can be different and it happens all the time. That is an unfortunate fact of disc golf manufacturing and you don't know anything if you have not encountered that. Just read up on disc review threads and you see it all the time from many members. Don't try to make this about me because it is the same for everyone.

I will absolutely not back down because anyone insists that i am wrong. Insisting without real world proof is not true. Your data set is too narrow and depicting the whole situation therefore only half right meaning in usefulness dead wrong. Repetition of a false claim does not make it right. If you are into letting false claims when repeated "becoming facts" die or learn to know better immediately. That is how dictators work among other assholes. That leads to murders and worse.

Just because you see the back of your hand does not mean there is not more in the world behind your hand. The same applies to your limited vision of what influences the flight of discs. I repeat (har har) speed stability. Use the search function of this forum to read up some more on it. Do you like salt with that crow? Buy your own i've given you free lunches and am tired of it being spat at my face. BOOO!!!

I still would like to know how far you throw to assess where you're coming from experience wise. If you throw significantly shorter than me or in the mountains things are different between us. Maybe you should look at what long throwing pros carry in their bags too to compare the stability of the discs they use to have them stay reliable at their probably higher power than you have.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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