need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

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need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby douglas78 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:13 am

Hey guys,

I'm trying to get a little more insight on the feeling or motion of what others on here describe as accelerating/releasing the disc while opened up facing the target and aiming with the hit as opposed to aiming with a strong-armed pull through, which is what I believe I'm doing. My max distance is 360' range. What I'm trying to understand is how I'm suppose to pull as hard as I can when I'm facing the target with my wrist at my right pec and elbow bent? The only way I can see pulling hard at that point is yanking my forearm to the right. I just can't understand how the disc can be catapulted from the front of your chest harder than being pulled parallel from the target without it shanking hard right.. I mean, I see it done all the time but I can't seem to get it there and pull hard enough for it to go straight.

I have found that if I try gripping as hard as I can at the end of my throw the disc does seem to pop out faster and I get another 30' or so. Trying to keep that consistent is another story. I'm trying to get that feeling of the disc getting heavy before I grip hard. Does this happen before the clenching down?

I know these topics have been discussed 1000x over and I'm sorry for re-asking something that's been discussed over and over.

Any advice would help.

Thanks!
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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby itlnstln » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:48 pm

Actually, you release the disc with your shoulders about 90 degrees from the target, not directly faced up; that's why you're having problems pulling out straight. You do, if you can, want to see the target before you throw. It's more of moving your head than your shoulders. Check out the video below. At about 12.5 seconds, Avery releases the disc. He's a little past 90 deg. but certainly not faced up.

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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby JR » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:49 am

Everyone has a different combination of power and speed in different parts of the body. That might change over time too. Some combinations might mean different body positions at the rip for different persons give the best D for each individual. So experimentation might be needed. The longer you accelerate the faster the disc should leave. Not everyone has enough muscles to accelerate hard from when the plant step touches the ground.

For more squared to the target body orientation a lower stance with a steeper squat from the knees helps and pushing with the left leg forward and back with the right leg from a relatively slow speed into the plant step. Not running pell mell unless you have pro athlete level muscle power. Even that may not suffice. It is pretty essential to brace the right leg when the heel touches the ground in the plant step. When to lighten up with the leg muscles to start the heel pivot depends on how fast the arm is moving where. Another case of experimentation is needed. Some might get best results before the right pec position, some at it and some after it. The later the heel pivot starts the quicker the acceleration of the rotation via the lever of the right shoulder and the arm is. Pivot too late and the end speed might be less than maximum.

Where the max speed and hard(est?) acceleration combo gives the best distance might vary from person to person. I don't know if any studies have been conducted on that. I imagine that the exit speed counts the most so one might start experimentation by trying to maximize the exit speed and trying to get as much acceleration before the best rip speed acceleration points are. Those are when to release the leg bracing and when to accelerate the arm the fastest.

The heel pivot and the forearm straightening and possible (beneficial) movement of the whole arm to the right from the shoulder socket all change the direction your body mass is moving. The disc pivots between the fingers going back to front pretty much while the body and the arm are going right. Even when you stop the elbow and the wrist thanks to the heel pivot and the hips twisting and shoulders turning. Those generate a lot of power possibly more than the arm alone.

With enough acceleration the weight of the disc should be noticeable at least once the elbow starts to straighten. Pinching can be started pretty late possibly even after the feel of the weight happens. The nasty thing about that is that the sensation needs to travel to the brain and get processed and the command to pinch needs to travel to the fingers. It takes time and the arm has moved a lot. It is possible that you have pinched too late and that reduces your consistency. I'd experiment with earlier pinching times to make sure that you don't get slips from sometimes pinching too late.

Catapulting is a good word. It happens when the direction of the arm movement changes and the disc pivot really accelerates. Even harder than has happened before that. The tighter the corner and more abrupt the direction change of the arm movement the faster the disc pivots=snaps out like a bat out of catapult :-)
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby douglas78 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:17 am

JR wrote:Everyone has a different combination of power and speed in different parts of the body. That might change over time too. Some combinations might mean different body positions at the rip for different persons give the best D for each individual. So experimentation might be needed. The longer you accelerate the faster the disc should leave. Not everyone has enough muscles to accelerate hard from when the plant step touches the ground.

For more squared to the target body orientation a lower stance with a steeper squat from the knees helps and pushing with the left leg forward and back with the right leg from a relatively slow speed into the plant step. Not running pell mell unless you have pro athlete level muscle power. Even that may not suffice. It is pretty essential to brace the right leg when the heel touches the ground in the plant step. When to lighten up with the leg muscles to start the heel pivot depends on how fast the arm is moving where. Another case of experimentation is needed. Some might get best results before the right pec position, some at it and some after it. The later the heel pivot starts the quicker the acceleration of the rotation via the lever of the right shoulder and the arm is. Pivot too late and the end speed might be less than maximum.

Where the max speed and hard(est?) acceleration combo gives the best distance might vary from person to person. I don't know if any studies have been conducted on that. I imagine that the exit speed counts the most so one might start experimentation by trying to maximize the exit speed and trying to get as much acceleration before the best rip speed acceleration points are. Those are when to release the leg bracing and when to accelerate the arm the fastest.

The heel pivot and the forearm straightening and possible (beneficial) movement of the whole arm to the right from the shoulder socket all change the direction your body mass is moving. The disc pivots between the fingers going back to front pretty much while the body and the arm are going right. Even when you stop the elbow and the wrist thanks to the heel pivot and the hips twisting and shoulders turning. Those generate a lot of power possibly more than the arm alone.

With enough acceleration the weight of the disc should be noticeable at least once the elbow starts to straighten. Pinching can be started pretty late possibly even after the feel of the weight happens. The nasty thing about that is that the sensation needs to travel to the brain and get processed and the command to pinch needs to travel to the fingers. It takes time and the arm has moved a lot. It is possible that you have pinched too late and that reduces your consistency. I'd experiment with earlier pinching times to make sure that you don't get slips from sometimes pinching too late.

Catapulting is a good word. It happens when the direction of the arm movement changes and the disc pivot really accelerates. Even harder than has happened before that. The tighter the corner and more abrupt the direction change of the arm movement the faster the disc pivots=snaps out like a bat out of catapult :-)



Thank you JR! I have alot to keep in mind while doing my drills. As always, you make alot of good points!
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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby JR » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:58 am

I thought of Newtonian physics and wondered if i should write something about it because the text was long already. The transfer of the kinetic energy from previous movements to the disc is not 100 % effective. As evidenced by having a follow through. Since kinetic energy likes to travel down the path of least resistance and objects in motion won't stop on their own and stopping the elbow and the wrist transfers some (much?) of the kinetic energy into the disc pivot during the disc pivot there is less weight to be moved with the transferred kinetic energy. Backing up a little in time we'll see how the weight that needs to be moved changes over time. At the right pec position the mass that you move is the mass of the disc plus your mass. If the elbow stopped completely the moving part of the wrist plus hand plus disc would form the mass. When the wrist stops (if it can be achieved before the rip) the mass in the disc pivot would be only that of the disc and the outer sections of the fingers under the flight plate would add some mass too until they've straightened out and the disc has pivoted out of contact with the fingers.

Since the effective mass to be moved goes down and hopefully the kinetic energy is increased through acceleration or at least kept constant the mass to force ratio should go down and the acceleration and speed of the disc should go up if the disc pivots well and the elbow and wrist retard enough and the fingers can hold onto the disc long enough for a disc pivot.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby douglas78 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:19 am

JR wrote:I thought of Newtonian physics and wondered if i should write something about it because the text was long already. The transfer of the kinetic energy from previous movements to the disc is not 100 % effective. As evidenced by having a follow through. Since kinetic energy likes to travel down the path of least resistance and objects in motion won't stop on their own and stopping the elbow and the wrist transfers some (much?) of the kinetic energy into the disc pivot during the disc pivot there is less weight to be moved with the transferred kinetic energy. Backing up a little in time we'll see how the weight that needs to be moved changes over time. At the right pec position the mass that you move is the mass of the disc plus your mass. If the elbow stopped completely the moving part of the wrist plus hand plus disc would form the mass. When the wrist stops (if it can be achieved before the rip) the mass in the disc pivot would be only that of the disc and the outer sections of the fingers under the flight plate would add some mass too until they've straightened out and the disc has pivoted out of contact with the fingers.

Since the effective mass to be moved goes down and hopefully the kinetic energy is increased through acceleration or at least kept constant the mass to force ratio should go down and the acceleration and speed of the disc should go up if the disc pivots well and the elbow and wrist retard enough and the fingers can hold onto the disc long enough for a disc pivot.



This is starting to make some sense to me now. I feel like I got a physics lesson..:)

One thing I would to add is when watching Beato's drill video I notice his reach back never really goes pass the left pec or should before pulling in to the right pec. Should I focus on keeping my reach back compact like this? I've toyed with lower reach backs and farther ones and I lose all my momentum with those. I have been doing the pec drills inside since I have only been able to get a round or two in during the week due to bad weather.
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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby JR » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:45 am

Throwing is applied physics.

There's a video with a few on top looking down slow motions of him and he does reach back beyond the left side. The shorter the reach back the slower the speed and the less chance you have of wrist rolls. Often times an under powered throw is more accurate and repeatable than one with maximum speed.

You should not stop moving at any point to the degree of losing power. Stopping some body part should make the next movements faster. This is true of any reach back height and distance. Scott Stokely recommends using one form for accuracy and a different form for distance. Accuracy with a shorter reach back and distance with a long reach back. It works.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby douglas78 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:39 am

OK, now I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong and I'm sorry I have no video to post yet. It seems like the harder I try and keep the disc close to my chest, The more I lose power. :|

I try and wait to accelerate until the right pec and it's like I wasted a ton of energy and the disc goes maybe 300'. This is really discouraging because I can hit 350' to 360' when I don't try to think about the right pec drill.

just frustrated.

:(
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Re: need some insight on not releasing until facing target.

Postby JR » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:07 am

How tight are your arm muscles before the right pec and after? It is perfectly fine to start the arm acceleration earlier as long as it gives more distance. You may have enough muscle power in the arm to be able to accelerate to the end with an earlier acceleration point. Only 350' with a good arm means that some things are off in torso though so a video would help in curing those if it is the case and a lot more D should be available after fixing those issues.

you said you were trying think of the right pec drill. That might be a problem. You are not doing that drill and worse than that is that thinking of it consciously in the short time that the throw takes can easily tie up all the resources of your brain. It tends to happen while changing form. Too bad it can often lead to not firing the muscles properly at full power and screwing up timing. Not thinking is what samurais are taught. Thinking can reduce speed and power big time thus the need to practice for automation. it doesn't help now but in time it can. The traditional one step back two forwards.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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