Form Critique

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Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:01 pm

Me and my buddy went out and got a video a couple days ago. Any comments/advice is very much appreciated.

First and third shots are flex shots, second shot is a turnover.
He throws first.
http://youtu.be/r9rnBL0-57I
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:24 pm

At this point, I'm most concerned that I should be doing something different with my videos themselves; Different types of throws? camera angles? Is too much cut out? Too little?

So, if there's anything I can do for my next video, please let me know!

Thank you!

P.S.
Where do I get the text that goes between [youtube][/youtube] to embed?
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Re: Form Critique

Postby JR » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:20 pm

Welcome. You paste the URL to your video from Youtube in between [youtube][/youtube]. Sometimes it does not work. You cannot see the acceleration beginning as well in slo mo as you do in a normally paced video. I don't know what you were trying to accomplish with those throws so a flat throw would tell more.

The straighter the torso is the faster you spin. Think of a figure skater doing a pirouette. Arms wide means slow arms in fast. If you both tighten the core muscles so that you don't tilt at the hips you'll spin a little faster. You may not notice it in feel but it should help with consistency. Your friend uses the Feldy kick but the left leg could go faster forward to counter the hips and shoulders turning the other way and the arm straightening. He should emphasize the hips and shoulders turning right more. Faster and farther right. Your left leg lifts off of the ground before the disc leaves so Newton's third law is working against you. So either leave the leg on the ground or switch to the Feldy kick.

See my signature for a description of a control throw for leg work. Your friend is not helping his consistency with the arm moving in a hyzer and the legs going anny.

A turnover throw starts hyzer and tilts anny. A flex shot flexes from an anhyzer to flat possibly to hyzer in the end. Technically it could start hyzer, flat or anny. You started your two throws differently position and running line wise. Why not for differently flying discs but a curved x step adds power reducing consistency especially on slippery ground. Your first throw was curvish but not as much as it could be so you risked some in consistency not gaining as much you could power wise. The second throw was great for consistency.

You time your hip and shoulder moving to the right earlier than your friend and get a lot more movement. It may be just me but it is harder to get as much torso movement to the right with the Feldy kick so the movement range is good for you and not total disaster but not optimal for your friend. The timing of the hip twist and shoulder turn is personal. The later you start the higher the acceleration is but too late sacrifices speed both are good in a throw so everyone needs to optimize their timing based on their body. Your timing reminds me of masterbeato in changing the direction of the movement being earlier than with some. All i can say about that is to try earlier and later timing to see what works best because i have been sick for a long time and have not been able to practice rail throwing so i lack experience of that. nasterbeato throws a mile he is pushing 700'.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:53 pm

I'll get some film from a field where we're throwing flat and straight. It was just an incredibly nice day, so we threw a round and tried out my new camera.

I appreciate the Beato reference! Working from the hit backwards was the first dg video I ever watched. And today I hear about this "Beato Rail" ... and I think I have a lot of work to do.


He was trying to throw a flex shot out to the right of the road, about 50' high at apex. Ended up about 8' high at apex


I'm trying to turn over a Comet; it turns over into that tree on the right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV6EQ_Aeihw&NR=1

I throw that flex shot over the road fairly well. A little too high.


Something happened to the full-speeds, but these are they.

Thanks for the help!
Last edited by Dan-O on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby JR » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:38 am

Search this site with the word rail because there are some diagrams and a link to masterbeato throwing in slow motion top down so that you can see how and when each body part moves.

Your friend waits a little before he starts to put on the power in the arm pull. You rip full on right when the leg hits the ground in the plant step. That is called strong arming and since having acceleration out to the end of the throw is good it may suffer. Some local bombers claim that their longest throws come when they yank the arm at full speed from the get go but few are so muscular that they could maintain arm acceleration for that long. So again the best thing to do is to check where and how fast you should accelerate the arm to get the longest distance. Minding that some of the muscle cells slowly transform into faster ones making you more explosive over time with practice. And of course learning body control helps too so it is likely that the optimum acceleration time and rate of acceleration might change over time. This why it is good to check the situation in the beginning of each season.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:18 am

I searched a little bit; probably not enough. I guess the thing I'm not understanding is what the rail is in relation to.

Interestingly, my friend has more of a problem turning discs over than me. It always looked to me like he was strong-arming it.
It's early in the year, and I'm trying not to strong arm, but I'm really anxious and my arm is excited ... hopefully it will be cured in a couple weeks.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:50 pm

JR wrote:The straighter the torso is the faster you spin. Think of a figure skater doing a pirouette. Arms wide means slow arms in fast. If you both tighten the core muscles so that you don't tilt at the hips you'll spin a little faster. You may not notice it in feel but it should help with consistency. Your friend uses the Feldy kick but the left leg could go faster forward to counter the hips and shoulders turning the other way and the arm straightening. He should emphasize the hips and shoulders turning right more. Faster and farther right. Your left leg lifts off of the ground before the disc leaves so Newton's third law is working against you. So either leave the leg on the ground or switch to the Feldy kick.


I just caught your meaning here. Thank you. I'm going to work on that.

I've been either reading or throwing for the past week; I'm hoping this is an improvement.

http://youtu.be/iXitqNU5e64
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Re: Form Critique

Postby JR » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:07 am

You throw pretty similarly from shot to shot having less variation than most players. The ball of the foot is nicely high in most throws during the heel pivot clearing most obstacles on natural tees and second shots nicely.

The lack of hip twist and shoulder turn probably stems mostly from spinning out. Which is pivoting too early with the right heel in the plant step having a loose leg. When the heel touches the ground you should try to stop the leg in place by tightening the thigh and calf muscles hard in order to transfer the momentum to twisting the hips right automatically to a degree and once that starts adding muscle power too. thought wise there is a delay between thinking of twisting the torso right and the actual movement so the command needs to leave early. Probably around the same time as the heel touches the ground. If you can stop the leg in place for a while the torso will turn quicker than is possible with muscle power alone and the force is multiplied with the lever that is the arm and spine to shoulder distance=a ton. So any rotational speed increase that does not remove balance, timing and movement directionality of firing in the direction of the target helps.

The arm swing drops a few inches after the left hand is separated from the disc and unlike most who drop the disc you don't really raise the disc higher before the rip. At least badly and all the time. Still the disc leaves front higher than rear so i'd concentrate on pushing the wrist down and seeing if you can raise the rear of the disc higher. Gripping the disc pinky to index finger first makes it easiest to maintain as nose down attitude as possible with a power grip. Wiggins grip is easier and two fingered power grip is in between with three fingered grip being almost as hard to force nose down as the four fingered grip.

Once those things are fine i'd try to add power generation by reaching back as far as possible by turning the back of the head, back and heels at the target when the x step lands and planting the plant step with the toes pointed 180-120 degrees away from the target. After that for even less consistency especially on slippery surfaces try running in an arc right rear to center to right front of the tee. Thereafter more weight shift and leg power addition is available from 360 and even more revs with way less accuracy and consistency.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:30 pm

Thanks JR. I'm hoping a lot of these problems are caused by my poor posture, which is what I'm currently trying to improve.

My lower body doesn't have the muscle memory down yet, and I was focusing on my upper body. Are those problems there in my previous video? If so, I'll definitely have to do something different. If not, I just need to focus more.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:39 pm

I forgot. I didn't post those videos. And now they're corrupted. I guess I'll be posting more video soon.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby JR » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:40 am

I was referring to the video you posted in the message from February 10th. Yes you could brace the right leg in the plant step a lot more because you are spinning out now. It is normal that changing more than one thing at a time does not work so the upper body work might self correct taking care of a previous issue that could well undermine the work the upper body does. This does not mean that bracing the right leg will correct the hip twist and the shoulder turn alone but is a great help so i'd change that first and see if it makes those changes easier to achieve.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:54 am



On my drives, I wasn't really focusing on form so much as just chucking disc. I was very focused on form on all but the last 2 putts, and they were the only ones I consider "typical" after I'm warmed up and mentally prepared to putt.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby JR » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:57 am

That putting form is good for outside the circle putts but you can generate more power if you turn the left foot to face left instead of almost at the basket. See how your wrist points to the right of neutral in the follow through? If your release comes late the disc will miss right each time so i'd add more late acceleration to make sure that the disc leaves before the elbow straightens out. I cannot see the grip is it a power grip, a fan or something else? Power grip tightens up the forearm muscles slowing down the arm and the acceleration costing distance, accuracy and consistency.

On the drives i would brace the right leg muscles harder once the right heel touches the ground in the plant step and if you already are at maximum i'd extend the time the right leg is stopped in place. That would twist the hips faster and allow the elbow to get more forward for a faster acceleration=more powerful snap. Bracing the right leg means that the foot direction does not change until the disc gets to the right pec position +- whatever to yield the best distance for you. At which point you loosen up the muscles in the right leg and allow the heel pivot to begin.

The reach back is longish for accuracy shots and short for maximum golf distance. For longer reach backs you need to change the foot pointing direction of the x and the plant steps to face more back up to 180 degrees away from the target. Your running direction is mostly fine for an accuracy shot with some plant steps landing a little too far to the left tilting your body right unless you wanted anhyzers. For distance it is a matter of choice and philosophy and need for D whether you run in a straight line or curve pivoting in the x and plant steps.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby Dan-O » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:04 pm

JR wrote:That putting form is good for outside the circle putts but you can generate more power if you turn the left foot to face left instead of almost at the basket. See how your wrist points to the right of neutral in the follow through? If your release comes late the disc will miss right each time so i'd add more late acceleration to make sure that the disc leaves before the elbow straightens out. I cannot see the grip is it a power grip, a fan or something else? Power grip tightens up the forearm muscles slowing down the arm and the acceleration costing distance, accuracy and consistency.


I've only recently switched to this style (only been putting backhand since October), and I don't need a step-through until I'm out to about 60'. So I'm not too worried about power right now. To turn my left foot further left, I'll need to be more flexible. Any further left now adds tension to my legs. I don't miss right as often as I miss left from slips, so I think finishing open is a reaction to that. My checklist for my putt is: Stand up on my lead leg, wind up on line with the basket, start slow, accelerate to the basket, and hold on to release. Accelerating is the easiest to forget to do right now because I have to force myself to go so slow or the flight is not clean at all. I'm using a fan grip. Index finger is the only one on the inner rim. The other 3 are flat against the flight plate.
What makes it good for outside the circle? I can see it's superior to all my other techniques for longer putts, I'm just wondering what it is you saw that gave it away?



JR wrote:On the drives i would brace the right leg muscles harder once the right heel touches the ground in the plant step and if you already are at maximum i'd extend the time the right leg is stopped in place. That would twist the hips faster and allow the elbow to get more forward for a faster acceleration=more powerful snap. Bracing the right leg means that the foot direction does not change until the disc gets to the right pec position +- whatever to yield the best distance for you. At which point you loosen up the muscles in the right leg and allow the heel pivot to begin.


When do I stop my right leg in place? What part of the foot is touching the ground while I do it? I might be able to brace harder (fairly new concept for me), but I'm trying to brace as hard as I can already. Feel ain't real, but it feels like I'm braced a few inches past right pec position.



JR wrote:The reach back is longish for accuracy shots and short for maximum golf distance. For longer reach backs you need to change the foot pointing direction of the x and the plant steps to face more back up to 180 degrees away from the target. Your running direction is mostly fine for an accuracy shot with some plant steps landing a little too far to the left tilting your body right unless you wanted anhyzers. For distance it is a matter of choice and philosophy and need for D whether you run in a straight line or curve pivoting in the x and plant steps.


They were longish accuracy shots. 3 out of every 4 were about 140 paces and within 20' of each other. I'm more concerned with consistency and accuracy than distance.

Planting too far left is a HUGE issue on my hyzers. I feel like I'm trying to throw hyzers from an anhyzer base, and I'm not figuring out what I need to do to fix it. In the vid, all shots off the carpet were straight shots (some needed a little hyzer due to flippy discs), and all right handed shots from the grass are hyzers. My hyzers are going plenty far (still 130+ paces) but I can only get one Force and one Comet of mine to move to the left significantly. What I'm concerned I'm doing is rolling my wrist under to be able to throw hyzer from a more closed stance. Is that plausible?

There are a couple of things I'm confused about.

Is my stance supposed to change from closed to open for anhyzer to hyzer, or is it always supposed to be the same relative to the line I'm starting the disc on?

Can you give me examples of ways to enlarge or shrink one's rail?

I think Beato said that after he was throwing 500', he had Blake teach him to throw 200'. Where's that thread? I can throw Comets on a rope over 300', but anything under 250' and they turn and burn bad. I'm pretty sure it's just because I think if I accelerate I'm going to overshoot the target.
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Re: Form Critique

Postby JR » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:56 pm

I'm no rail expert but low stance with plenty of knee bend and pushing back with the right leg and forward with the left helps in tightening and quickening the direction change of the arm movement. You might be able to pull back with the arm that is after the elbow gets straight and the arm is well in front when the disc pivots you might be able to pull back with the arm by rebending the elbow. That ain't easy at full power and i really suck at that so i cannot offer success based personal experience on that sorry. One thing that is very feasible in tightening the corner is yanking the shoulders quickly which for me adds consistent 10' of distance with drivers. On videos you can see this style most often with Swedish players. Check out 4:42 on this video for IIRC the actual drive that gave Daniel Strandberg his albatross 3 at 4:42 and him playing in other rounds on lcgm8 channel at Youtube in the Scandinavian Open 2010.


Other Swedes with quick shoulder turns include Camilla Jernberg, Linus Åström, Markus Källström and Jesper Lundmark and you can see each of them in different videos on lcgm8.

Your putting form is superior at long ranges vs many other forms that are good at 20-25' in that you add a lot power from the legs bending the knees so much and lifting the arm so much for glide from the high apex height while using a long reach back that bounced back plyometrically from bringing the arm back toward the body and having a long arm stroke albeit with less than optimal late acceleration. For shorter ranges most people get their best consistency squaring up with the body toward the target or almost and rotating slightly with the upper body counter balanced by the left leg moving mirrored to the arm in the putting stroke.

Right leg brace of the plant step should begin when the heel touches the ground and the ball of the foot is in the air and you just need to brace at 100 % so there the muscle tension feeling is real most likely. Since you feel that the leg is braced a little past the right pec but you pivot possibly too early for best distance the feeling may be off. Thus i'd test bracing longer than that to see where your follow through step lands and how late the heel pivot begins and which timing brings the most distance.

My signature has info on how to achieve hyzers for max accuracy throws. Note that there are longer distance yielding leg work forms out there that suffer at least in consistency in slippery conditions.

I don't recall where the masterbeato 200' throwing after reaching 500' thread is. I don't recall reading that.

Comet turning at under 250' and not at 300' is something i've come across too. It seems to be all in the spin thus snap thus late acceleration for me. We have enough power to exceed the cruising speed of the Comet to make it turn if we don't give it good enough spin. Which is all too easy with an early acceleration and incomplete late acceleration which leads to a partially hampered disc pivot all too easily. But the main thing probably is too loose a grip leading to slips or micro slips that have the disc moving in the correct direction but with too early thumb separation from the disc before the disc pivot has completed fully. Reducing spin rate so that the speed overpowers the gyroscopic force and the disc flips anny. The solution is to start slower with the arm pull and create the needed power after the right pec position with a brisk to hard late acceleration and pinching well. It may also be helpful to move the thumb closer to the center of the disc to delay the thumb slipping away from the disc a little even though it will not pivot the disc optimally after the thumb has started slipping. It will still help a little. Loosey goosey with the Comet is is a punishing disc.

Wrist rolls are all too common and the cure is to tighten up the muscles around the wrist some at around the starting point of the elbow chop. How tight and when depends on your muscle power and acceleration ability. So only you can tell which version gives the best distance and only by experimenting.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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