The downwind putt

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The downwind putt

Postby PMantle » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:55 am

I am lost here. Disc drops so much I have to release like I'm putting over a house. So lost I don't even know where to start. Help?
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby luma » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:18 am

Not much wrong with it. Just try to adjust your disc angle a little. I would assume you have that glidey putt with the disc angle more than 10-15° nose up. It works fine under branches, for long putts without too much effort, and when it's not windy. But when you putt it downwind, you give the wind the complete top side of the disc to push it down. Just like a hyzer (RHBH) with wind from the left pushes it right and will not let the disc fade to the left as much, when you putt downwind it will puch it down to the ground.

I actually putted nose down for a few weeks before adjusting it because I just couldn't get it far enough, but with nose down, downwind my disc would always get pushed up and pushed down when putting into a headwind...
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby PMantle » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:29 am

So, I'm compounding the issue? I have not tried nose down. Not sure I'm capable. Will try.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby Mark Ellis » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:00 am

Wind putts are very difficult. As far as I can figure out all you need to do is throw them perfectly (PERFECTLY) then hope you don't get unlucky. :)

Winds are not consistent. Some days they change speed and direction, often in mid-throw. Strong winds are scary so I tend to be more conservative. Some players putt hard in strong winds. This minimizes how much the wind affects the disc between your lie and the basket but if you miss it may sail or even roll far away. Unless I am close to the basket and very confident I can hit solid center chains I usually putt softer in strong winds.

In strong winds the initial flutter of a throw, that little wobble right off your fingertips, gets exaggerated. So releasing cleanly is important. When you do this you can get away putting softer and still cutting the wind. Any time I am not sure what the winds are doing ( well, I know they are swirling but not sure what they will be doing at the instant of release and during the flight) I try to throw dead nuts flat and smooth.

With a tailwind I loft higher and putt nose up. How much higher I aim is just a judgement call. Tailwind putts are less difficult than headwinds or right to left crossing winds (for a right handed player). At least tailwinds tend to slam a disc straight down, with less chance of it going long or rolling.

The only way to learn strong winds is to throw in them. You can't go out on a calm day and just imagine there are strong winds. So while many players avoid windy days it is the best time to go out. Finding open fields where the winds are the strongest and making up safari holes is better than playing holes protected by the woods. Making up upshot games and putting games at baskets open to the wind is good too.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby PMantle » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:04 am

There must be something about my release that's different Mark. I say this because I am WAY better into the wind than I am down. Into, I just aim lower and firm it. Only when I get lazy and soft do I mess up into. Down? Lost, just lost.

The only thing that has worked somewhat is: turning sideways and tossing it like an approach with lots of spin. Seems like a crutch though. Would like to learn to stay in a putting stance and get it right.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby JR » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:14 pm

Spin putts err spin the disc more so the disc cuts through the wind better so laser line putts are nice for the winds especially headwinds. non glidey fading putters make rear wind putting unnecessarily difficult so the remedy is to try something that really floats and fades little. The usual suspects are APX, Rattler, 170 and lower Ions and Anodes off the top of my head. Even Aviar P&A and relatives should work ok when you go low enough in weight. Mind you dropping extremely low in putter weight will mess up the gyroscopics and the disc will fade earlier losing the benefits. Happy medium of staying in the air longer=higher and not veering off course is what you need. And this observation was done with an extreme case a Wizard that weighs measly 105 grams and that is not a typo. It fades earlier than 150, 166 and 172-175 Wizards i have.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby Agricolae » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:18 pm

I was looking at that same situation today on the course. Stiff tailwind and a 25' putt. It occurred to me that the speed of my normal putt was likely about equal to the speed of the wind, meaning that my putter would not fly ... it would be just dead weight. So, I tried to putt with the same force it would take to toss a shapeless non-aerodynamic mass into the basket. Hit center chains! A single success, but this way of gauging force per distance was new to me.

I've been using Mark's recommendation of dead flat for putts into headwinds with reasonable success. I'll go very slightly nose down, aim a little higher, if a fly-by would be too risky.

It also occurred to me today that in a really stiff tailwind, the wind may in fact be faster than my putter on its way to the basket. In that case, in terms of air speed and direction, the thing would actually be "flying" backwards (toward me, not the basket).

I'm still trying to get comfortable with wind putting. I like Mark's dead-flat and JR's spin approaches. Still, when I get spooked, I'll try to show just a bit of the top to the wind so if I mis-calculate the disc will drop instead of flying off into the adjacent fairway!
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby JR » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:39 pm

I''m putting flat in all conditions if there are no obstacles because here by the sea we get so much wind so often that it is best to be prepared for wind direction and speed changes mid flight and why use two styles when you can become better in one that you can use across all conditions? Flat, laser, spin putts whatever you call them spin the disc more than lost putts. At longer ranges i do pitch up the arm a little but not as much as pure loft/pitch whatever you want to call it putters. So it still is a laser minus the initial slight lift flat shot at long ranges. In non stormy conditions i might make long runs hyzered, annied, flat or s-curving but non flat ones are exceptions based on wind direction and speed plus OB/danger like drops behind the basket.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:21 am

PMantle wrote:There must be something about my release that's different Mark. I say this because I am WAY better into the wind than I am down. Into, I just aim lower and firm it. Only when I get lazy and soft do I mess up into. Down? Lost, just lost.

The only thing that has worked somewhat is: turning sideways and tossing it like an approach with lots of spin. Seems like a crutch though. Would like to learn to stay in a putting stance and get it right.


This makes no sense to me. If you can aim lower into a headwind then you should be able to aim higher with a tailwind. If you can putt uphill with no wind by aiming higher then you can putt higher with a tailwind on flat ground. Maybe some evil Putting Genie put a spell on you? Anyone know any good counter-spells?
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby PMantle » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:28 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:
PMantle wrote:There must be something about my release that's different Mark. I say this because I am WAY better into the wind than I am down. Into, I just aim lower and firm it. Only when I get lazy and soft do I mess up into. Down? Lost, just lost.

The only thing that has worked somewhat is: turning sideways and tossing it like an approach with lots of spin. Seems like a crutch though. Would like to learn to stay in a putting stance and get it right.


This makes no sense to me. If you can aim lower into a headwind then you should be able to aim higher with a tailwind. If you can putt uphill with no wind by aiming higher then you can putt higher with a tailwind on flat ground. Maybe some evil Putting Genie put a spell on you? Anyone know any good counter-spells?

Well, we obviously have different air here. Everyone's downwind putts get knocked down.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby andrew » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:39 pm

Mark is acknowledging that downwind/tailwind putts get knocked down, that's why he's saying to aim higher. I'd add to give it more mustard- throw the thing with confidence which may seem counter-intuitive because you're worried if you miss it will blow way past the basket. Don't miss.

Edit: Note that Mark doesn't buy into the throw it harder theory.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:08 pm

PMantle wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:
PMantle wrote:There must be something about my release that's different Mark. I say this because I am WAY better into the wind than I am down. Into, I just aim lower and firm it. Only when I get lazy and soft do I mess up into. Down? Lost, just lost.

The only thing that has worked somewhat is: turning sideways and tossing it like an approach with lots of spin. Seems like a crutch though. Would like to learn to stay in a putting stance and get it right.


This makes no sense to me. If you can aim lower into a headwind then you should be able to aim higher with a tailwind. If you can putt uphill with no wind by aiming higher then you can putt higher with a tailwind on flat ground. Maybe some evil Putting Genie put a spell on you? Anyone know any good counter-spells?

Well, we obviously have different air here. Everyone's downwind putts get knocked down.


Right. And everyone gets wet when it rains. :D
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:35 pm

andrew wrote:Mark is acknowledging that downwind/tailwind putts get knocked down, that's why he's saying to aim higher. I'd add to give it more mustard- throw the thing with confidence which may seem counter-intuitive because you're worried if you miss it will blow way past the basket. Don't miss.

Edit: Note that Mark doesn't buy into the throw it harder theory.


It's not that I don't understand the value of laser putting, it is just not my 1st choice. One the last hole with a "must make" putt to tie I will putt hard. On the last hole with a putt to win by one I won't putt hard and risk a tough come back if I miss. Far better to accept a tie and let it go to sudden death in a playoff.

There are a few, very fortunate players who are naturally great putters. Since it is their strength they can get away with very risky choices on putts. I will never be invited to that exclusive country club. Heck, that club wouldn't let me serve as a volunteer shoe shine boy. That's OK. We all have strengths and weaknesses and we should all try to understand how to play to them.

I am usually good under pressure and tend to get better as the pressure mounts. So I am happy to push a situation into sudden death rather than risk it all on a low percentage putt.

In life you gotta pick your spots.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby PMantle » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:56 pm

andrew wrote: I'd add to give it more mustard-.

This is what I shall do. Unfortunately, putting with mustard seems to take longer than throwing a driver far. Well, and I have T-rex arms.
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Re: The downwind putt

Postby Terrence » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:51 pm

A 150-class (or even 165ish) putter works well if the wind is directly at your back. Add a little anhyzer angle and you'll get good glide without having to throw beyond a comfortable power level. I deal with windy conditions nearly every round since Ludington sits on Lake Michigan's west coast.
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