2013 Rules Changes

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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:39 am

andrew wrote:While I don't really know what your drawings are attempting to depict, on both of them the first throw misses the mando so you get a one stroke penalty and the next throw is from a drop-zone or, if there isn't one, a re-tee. So I guess what I'm saying is neither drawing is correct.


?? In the first picrure (as well in the second)the disc stopped to the tee side from the mando line after the first throw.
Last edited by Simeon on Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby andrew » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:49 am

Oh, I guess you're right based on the use of the word AND in 804.02B. Sorry; I'll shut up now.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:18 am

The disc is still "completely beyond the mandatory line" that matters (in the drawings) which is the line on the "Missed Mando" side, not the Made the Mando side. BTW, there's now no reason for a line on the Made Mando side anymore, just the Missed Mando side, because crossing a Made Mando line doesn't mean you've made it any more.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:04 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The disc is still "completely beyond the mandatory line" that matters (in the drawings) which is the line on the "Missed Mando" side, not the Made the Mando side. BTW, there's now no reason for a line on the Made Mando side anymore, just the Missed Mando side, because crossing a Made Mando line doesn't mean you've made it any more.


Thank you for your reply. I just can't find confirmation to your idea: "Made Mando line does not exist" from 804.02. Also I refer to the word AND like Andrew did.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:23 pm

While the rule refers to a line on both sides of the mando, the "Made" side line is now meaningless with the new rule because the flight of your disc must now remain on the "Made" side of the mando for every throw until you have holed out. So a line is unnecessary on the "Made" side since crossing it in either direction means nothing.

Rule 804.02B refers to missing the mando on the incorrect side. That means the disc crossed the "Missed" mando line. AND, unless the disc crosses back over the same "Missed" mando line, the Mando has been missed. The "Made" mando line, if it exists, does not matter since it's not the same line as the Missed mando line being referred to. Perhaps they could have made the wording more clear. But it's not incorrect as it stands.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby andrew » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:06 am

Okay, so I borrowed an image from Chuck's link of Mando explanations and Photoshopped it to create four confusing scenarios. Goal was to help so hopefully I didn't make a mess of it. Please verify for me that all four are accurate:
Image
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby TobbeF » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Rule 804.02B refers to missing the mando on the incorrect side. That means the disc crossed the "Missed" mando line. AND, unless the disc crosses back over the same "Missed" mando line, the Mando has been missed. The "Made" mando line, if it exists, does not matter since it's not the same line as the Missed mando line being referred to. Perhaps they could have made the wording more clear. But it's not incorrect as it stands.
Chuck, I understand what you are saying and I think rules to that effect would make great sense but the problem is that is not how the rules have been written.

804.02A defines a mandatory line:
If no line has been marked, the mandatory line is defined as a straight line through the mandatory...
I will argue that a line which passes through a mandatory extends to both sides of the mandatory, or else it would not be passing through it.

804.02B:
A throw has missed the mandatory if it passes the incorrect side of the mandatory from the direction of the tee, and establishes a position completely beyond the mandatory line.
So if a disc passes on the incorrect side of the mando but bounces back and establishes a position on the tee side of the mandatory line, the disc has not (yet) missed the mandatory according to 804.02A and B, regardless of which side of the mando the disc passes on the way back.

Furthermore, none of the two situations in Simeon´s drawings seem to be in conflict with 804.02E(though situation no 2 is hard to call):
...A line connecting the lies for the hole must pass to the correct sides of all mandatories for the hole.
(If however the rule had been referring to a line consisting of the actual flight paths instead of a line connecting the lies, situation no 1 would be conflicting with 804.02E and situation no 2 would be clearly ok, but that is not how the rules are written).
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:36 pm

There's no requirement that the direction of the line on one side of the mando be the same as the other side 804.02A(1). While it's normally straight through (default position), there are reasons why the designer/TD might have the Missed Mando line angle differently from the Made Mando line (and as noted, this line isn't really needed.) So when the 804.02B refers to missing on the incorrect side, it's only referencing the line on the Missed side when indicating AND staying beyond that line. We agree that there are two lines involved that may be in the same direction but are differentiated by calling one the Missed side and the other the Made side. I agree the RC could have made it more clear if they used the word "that" instead of "the" as the 3rd last word of 804.02B.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JHern » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:34 am

There should really be a simple and objective criteria for the meaning of "mando line," it is currently too loosy goosy. For example, if there is 1 mando, then the line perpendicular to the mando and the pin is the mando line. If there is a double mando, the line intersecting the 2 mandos is the mando line. By carefully placing a double mando, the course designer/TD would then still be able to define the mando line any way they like, but there would be no confusion about the rules.

I also think we should get rid of the 10m circle and allow falling putts. That will cut out a lot of complicated rules.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:54 pm

JHern wrote:There should really be a simple and objective criteria for the meaning of "mando line," it is currently too loosy goosy. For example, if there is 1 mando, then the line perpendicular to the mando and the pin is the mando line. If there is a double mando, the line intersecting the 2 mandos is the mando line. By carefully placing a double mando, the course designer/TD would then still be able to define the mando line any way they like, but there would be no confusion about the rules.

I also think we should get rid of the 10m circle and allow falling putts. That will cut out a lot of complicated rules.


With no falling putt rule the "run and jump" putts would be entertaining as heck. Track and Field would merge with disc golf. Would we need padded baskets for the jumpers who missed the landing?

You know players with speed, hang time and perhaps intoxication would try to jump over the basket and dunk it between their legs as they sailed by. The number plate could become a tool of unintentional castration.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JR » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:34 pm

I would imagine self castration by putting would attract more viewers in the extreme and feminist crowds :-)
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JHern » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:24 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:With no falling putt rule the "run and jump" putts would be entertaining as heck...


I said get rid of falling putts, I think you misinterpreted it. It would be the same rules as any other throw from any other location (except the tee). I.e., the disc must still be released prior to the supporting point (immediately behind the lie) coming off the ground. The only reason jump putts are helpful outside the circle is the added power they give to reach a further target, but you don't need added power inside the circle. Removing the 10m circle wouldn't have very much impact on the game, but would dramatically simplify the rules.

Mark Ellis wrote:You know players with speed, hang time and perhaps intoxication would try to jump over the basket and dunk it between their legs as they sailed by...


This would be illegal, just like throwing an upshot like this from greater than 10m is already illegal.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:22 pm

Wow :lol:
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:24 pm

The problem is the deadfall putt would then be allowed where the tall player just falls toward the basket from say 8 feet away, reaches out and slam dunks the putt while still keeping their stance behind the marker before face planting on the ground.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby andrew » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:25 pm

JHern wrote:I also think we should get rid of the 10m circle and allow falling putts. That will cut out a lot of complicated rules.


There is one simple rule to cover falling putts: 802.04D. You'd have to have severe learning disability to find that complicated.

American sports (American football, basketball, baseball) seem to be obsessed with tweaking the rules. I don't know what the paranoia is with that.
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