2013 Rules Changes

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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Star Shark » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:09 pm

Any shot taken from behind the mando must make it on the proper side, even if that's been done on a previous shot.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:39 pm

Star Shark wrote:Any shot taken from behind the mando must make it on the proper side, even if that's been done on a previous shot.

Than you Shark. There has been confusion if the Mando line is the line going around the world or just half of it. Like in diagram 10. How do you think of it?
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Star Shark » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:36 pm

Simeon wrote:
Star Shark wrote:Any shot taken from behind the mando must make it on the proper side, even if that's been done on a previous shot.

Than you Shark. There has been confusion if the Mando line is the line going around the world or just half of it. Like in diagram 10. How do you think of it?


For a single mando, I tend to think of it as an infinite line perpendicular to the layout of the hole. Another way to view it is that the line would be "no nearer to the basket" than the mando's location. Double mandos are easier to figure, obviously.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby discraft » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:51 am

Star Shark wrote:Any shot taken from behind the mando must make it on the proper side, even if that's been done on a previous shot.

Well said.
We should rewrite the rules so everyone can unserstand. Offical Rules of Disc Golf for Newbies.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:12 am

Simeon wrote:
Star Shark wrote:Any shot taken from behind the mando must make it on the proper side, even if that's been done on a previous shot.

Than you Shark. There has been confusion if the Mando line is the line going around the world or just half of it. Like in diagram 10. How do you think of it?

Well, I still need clarification.
Is the second shot in diagram 10 taken from behind the Mando or behind the made Mando line or..? Is this route correct according to your thinking?

Image
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:15 am

You've made the mando there. "From behind" is not a question at that point. Not sure what's confusing about it.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby mark12b » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:32 am

Ya, I'm still confused by #10 too. I saw a shot exactly like this a few weeks ago -- we watched the drive make the mando, then turn into a cut roller that crossed behind it and backwards over the "missed" line from the pin side. We all called it good as we saw the disc cross the "made" line. The second shot crossed the "missed" line as in #10 above but we didn't call a penalty since the mando had already been made.

Was that the right call under the new rules? At first when I was reading this thread, I thought an easy way to summarize the rule change is that "the missed line is poison" and if the disc crosses it at any time from any direction, there's a penalty. But in #10 the disc crosses the missed line twice and there's no penalty?
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby vto » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:38 am

PMantle wrote:You've made the mando there. "From behind" is not a question at that point. Not sure what's confusing about it.


The thing that confuses me is what makes the difference between the pictures 9 and 10 as posted by Simeon:
Simeon wrote:Image Image


In both pictures the first throw makes the mando, and the disc ends up on the tee side of the mando. Now, according to Chuck, in picture 10 you can ignore the mando and throw straight to the basket, and yet in picture 9 you can't, and must make the mando again? What's really the difference between those situations?

What if I change the second throw from picture 9 to this:
Image

Would that be legal then, and if yes, what is the difference between 9 and X, since in both cases the the first throw crosses the mando from the right side and the second throw crosses the mando from the wrong side? And if case X is not a legal shot, what is the difference between 10 and X then, since 10 is ruled legal?
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:45 am

The reason why 9 is not good is the disc has not stayed on the "good" side of the right side mando. Just staying on the good side of the left mando is not sufficient. The 10 and X diagrams are good because the disc always stayed around the good side of the mando.

One way to look at the new rule is that you can only cross a missed mando line from the tee side if you already crossed it once from the back side. Maybe that will clear up the diagram interpretations.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:44 am

vto wrote:
PMantle wrote:You've made the mando there. "From behind" is not a question at that point. Not sure what's confusing about it.


The thing that confuses me is what makes the difference between the pictures 9 and 10 as posted by Simeon:

9 has 2 and one was missed.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JoakimBL » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:13 pm

I'm thinking that this debate illustrates perfectly why the new mando rule is badly written.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:48 pm

JoakimBL wrote:I'm thinking that this debate illustrates perfectly why the new mando rule is badly written.

Just ran through it again. I can't find where the confusion is coming from.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby mark12b » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:42 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:One way to look at the new rule is that you can only cross a missed mando line from the tee side if you already crossed it once from the back side. Maybe that will clear up the diagram interpretations.

Thanks, Chuck. That is helpful.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:In the long run, I've suggested a way to handle mandos that I think solves this. There would only be one mando line on the Missed side only. If your disc ever crosses the Mando line just once on a throw from either direction, you go to the drop zone. Many times the reason for a mando is to keep people away from an area. So getting them away from that area by moving them to the drop zone regardless if they cross the line from the tee side or basket side seems to make sense.

Great idea. Far simpler, and I agree that if an area was supposed to be protected by the mando, there shouldn't be exceptions that let you throw that way sometimes.

@PMantle: good for you, but all of us are going to have to deal with people's confusion regardless. If my cardmates and I don't understand what's different about the rule this year, we'll just end up playing mandos the old way -- which isn't fair to the rest of the field.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby veganray » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:35 pm

For the rule to be user-friendly, every mando should be a "goal" defined by two "goalposts" marking the left and right limits of the mandatory flight path, even if one of those "goalposts" is so far away as to be feasibly unmissable. This "goal" could be infinitely tall like an Aussie rules football goal or have a "crossbar" like a soccer goal defining the upper altitude limit of the mandatory flight path (what's currently known as a "clown's mouth" mando). There could even be an "underbar" in lieu of or in addition to the "crossbar" to allow for a designer/TD to define the lower altitude limit of the mandatory flight path.

What is now considered a double mando could, in this new world, have each of the original mandos be a "goalpost"; an existing single mando would have to have another "goalpost" defined, even if it is clear across the parking lot. It would be prudent to have this new "goalpost", even if it weren't intended to ever come into play, at least visible from the other "goalpost" (i.e., the original single mando) so that the "goal line" between the "goalposts" would be easy to define.

If set up that way, each of these new mando "goals" would be an easy-to-define mandatory flight path, with the area short of the mando "goal" - orthogonal to the plane defined by the "goalposts" and the "goal line" (and the optional "crossbar" and/or "underbar") - being like an infinitely wide field of play in soccer. The way I would like to see the rule written, every time you are in the "field of play", you must "score a goal" - that is, pass over the "goal line" between the "goalposts", under the optional "crossbar", and over the optional "underbar" - before coming to rest outside of the "field of play" (i.e., beyond the "goal line") or else the mando is missed. If, as is suggested by some of the examples above, you "scored a goal", but then found your lie back in the "field of play", you would have to "score a goal" again before landing beyond the "goal line" to be deemed to have successfully negotiated the mando.

Giving each and every mando two "goalposts" (and, optionally, a "crossbar" and/or "underbar") would eliminate much of the ambiguity and confusion expertly written into both the former and current pDGA suggested guidelines and their myriad Kennedy re-interpretations.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Wed May 01, 2013 1:43 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:One way to look at the new rule is that you CAN only cross a missed mando line from the tee side if you already crossed it once from the back side. Maybe that will clear up the diagram interpretations.


Let's take a look to our cases according to that rule above:
#14 is against that rule. Also #9 IF missed Mando line is not going around the world.

Now if we put it like this:" You MUST cross a missed mando line from the tee side if you already crossed it once from the back side." In that case #11 is not correct. #9 is not correct if the Mando line does not go around the world.

Also note that when we apply only the "pull the flight path robe" rule, we shall notice that #9,11,14 are not correct routes.

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