2013 Rules Changes

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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JoakimBL » Wed May 01, 2013 3:18 am

In none of those pictures, have the disc made the mando in the first throw. "A disc has passed the mandatory once it establishes a position beyound the mandatory line." Since the position is established once the disc first comes to rest, the mando cannot be passed with the disc on the tee side of the mando (unless its a subsequent throw, that crosses the wrong side of the mando, which to me is absurd)
The rule about a line connecting the lies is totally useless, as it neither specifies a straight line or a line that is the flight path. And the "pull the flight path robe" doesn't work either. If I cross the madatory from the basket side after making the mando, the rule apparently allows me to throw and completely disregard the mandatory, allowing me to pass it on either side. Which is pretty absurd considering that I have to make the mandatory again, if i cross backwards on the made side of the mando. I cannot see any logic and this to me is why the rule is very poorly written and should be amended ASAP.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JoakimBL » Wed May 01, 2013 5:18 am

PMantle wrote:
JoakimBL wrote:I'm thinking that this debate illustrates perfectly why the new mando rule is badly written.

Just ran through it again. I can't find where the confusion is coming from.

Did you run through the debate or Rule 804.2? I think that the fact that we can have so different interpretations of the rules and have people on a rulesforum confused enough to not be able to agree is proof that the rule is not well defined. When people interested enough in the rules to read a rules forum on the Internet can't figure it out, how are everybody else supposed to do it?
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Wed May 01, 2013 8:07 am

JoakimBL wrote:
PMantle wrote:
JoakimBL wrote:I'm thinking that this debate illustrates perfectly why the new mando rule is badly written.

Just ran through it again. I can't find where the confusion is coming from.

Did you run through the debate or Rule 804.2? I think that the fact that we can have so different interpretations of the rules and have people on a rulesforum confused enough to not be able to agree is proof that the rule is not well defined. When people interested enough in the rules to read a rules forum on the Internet can't figure it out, how are everybody else supposed to do it?

Not sure how to answer your question here, but I still can't figure out where it gets confusing. My best guess is, some are paying too much attention to words which get twisted instead of the visuals, which are pretty clear. Again, that's a guess since I don't understand it.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JoakimBL » Thu May 02, 2013 12:37 am

The rule book have no visuals, so paying attention to words are pretty essential, don't you think? The visuals here equate to real life scenrios that could happen, and the ensuing discussion on the course could be similar to the one here, ad that is not a good situation.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Thu May 02, 2013 7:54 am

The visuals give the words meaning.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Thu May 02, 2013 1:50 pm

JoakimBL wrote:In none of those pictures, have the disc made the mando in the first throw. "A disc has passed the mandatory once it establishes a position beyound the mandatory line." Since the position is established once the disc first comes to rest, the mando cannot be passed with the disc on the tee side of the mando (unless its a subsequent throw, that crosses the wrong side of the mando, which to me is absurd)
The rule about a line connecting the lies is totally useless, as it neither specifies a straight line or a line that is the flight path. And the "pull the flight path robe" doesn't work either. If I cross the madatory from the basket side after making the mando, the rule apparently allows me to throw and completely disregard the mandatory, allowing me to pass it on either side. Which is pretty absurd considering that I have to make the mandatory again, if i cross backwards on the made side of the mando. I cannot see any logic and this to me is why the rule is very poorly written and should be amended ASAP.


"establishes a position beyound the mandatory line." Here is the great confusion. I try to trust people who wrote this wrote on purpose the word "mandatory line" instead of "made Mando line" or "missed Mando line". But if they don't mean the whole line, red and green, they should inform players all over the planet.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Thu May 02, 2013 4:13 pm

There is only one "mandatory" line and that is on "made" side of the mando. The word "Mandatory" means that specific line MUST be crossed, i.e., it's mandatory. The line on the missed side is not a "mandatory line" since it is not supposed to be crossed. In fact, if it is crossed from the tee side, it's a penalty. So when the rule says completely "beyond" the mandatory line, the only line that matters is the "made mando line." Once it is crossed, as long as the disc remains "beyond the mando line" the missed side line becomes meaningless whether it's crossed once twice or three times, as long as the disc flight path continues to reamin "beyond the mando line." If the disc comes back across the "made mando line" to the tee side, then the procedure starts over again where the disc has to fly back over the "made mando line" and cannot pass over the missed side line from the back side unless that happens again.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Thu May 02, 2013 10:36 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:There is only one "mandatory" line and that is on "made" side of the mando. The word "Mandatory" means that specific line MUST be crossed, i.e., it's mandatory. The line on the missed side is not a "mandatory line" since it is not supposed to be crossed. In fact, if it is crossed from the tee side, it's a penalty. So when the rule says completely "beyond" the mandatory line, the only line that matters is the "made mando line." Once it is crossed, as long as the disc remains "beyond the mando line" the missed side line becomes meaningless whether it's crossed once twice or three times, as long as the disc flight path continues to reamin "beyond the mando line." If the disc comes back across the "made mando line" to the tee side, then the procedure starts over again where the disc has to fly back over the "made mando line" and cannot pass over the missed side line from the back side unless that happens again.

Thank you. Now that you look at the diagram #11, is the flight path ok? To me it does not stay on the correct side.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JoakimBL » Fri May 03, 2013 12:40 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:There is only one "mandatory" line and that is on "made" side of the mando. The word "Mandatory" means that specific line MUST be crossed, i.e., it's mandatory. The line on the missed side is not a "mandatory line" since it is not supposed to be crossed. In fact, if it is crossed from the tee side, it's a penalty. So when the rule says completely "beyond" the mandatory line, the only line that matters is the "made mando line." Once it is crossed, as long as the disc remains "beyond the mando line" the missed side line becomes meaningless whether it's crossed once twice or three times, as long as the disc flight path continues to reamin "beyond the mando line." If the disc comes back across the "made mando line" to the tee side, then the procedure starts over again where the disc has to fly back over the "made mando line" and cannot pass over the missed side line from the back side unless that happens again.


Hmmmm:
The mandatory line is the line marked by the director or course designer to indicate when a disc has passed or missed the mandatory.

If no line has been marked, the mandatory line is defined as a straight line through the mandatory, perpendicular to the line connecting the mandatory to the previous mandatory, or if there is no previous mandatory, the tee.

In the case of a double mandatory when no line has been marked, the mandatory line is the straight line connecting the two mandatories, and extends beyond them in both directions.


Coincidental yoa have previosly stated that there is no need for the "made mandatory line". You try as best as you can to defend and make sense of this poorly written rule, why is that? Why not just admit that the rule is flawed and needs to be updated? Even if we all came to an agreement here, how will everyone else not reading rules forums interpret the rules, including TD's ad officials? The rule desperately needs simplification. As the rules stands, in my opinion it's broken enough that mandatories shouldn't be used in tournament play. Luckily, most of the hot points are borderline situations that may not come up too often, and when they do, players may not have sufficient rules knowledge to know there is an issue. But one thing is for certain, the borderline cases will not be handled consistently, and that is a problem.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri May 03, 2013 5:41 am

My role isn't to defend but explain the interpretation. I'm not happy with the current mando definition and also have issues with how combo penalties are now handled. But the rules are there as written and now explained and won't be changed for maybe two or three years. You and several others might think it's important enough to change right away but I'm pretty sure the RC and Board don't yet see it that way.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Fri May 03, 2013 7:41 am

Simeon wrote:Thank you. Now that you look at the diagram #11, is the flight path ok? To me it does not stay on the correct side.

You have issues with 11, but not 13? Nothing wrong with 11 at all.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Star Shark » Sat May 04, 2013 2:25 am

I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Sat May 04, 2013 4:42 am

PMantle wrote:
Simeon wrote:Thank you. Now that you look at the diagram #11, is the flight path ok? To me it does not stay on the correct side.

You have issues with 11, but not 13? Nothing wrong with 11 at all.

Can anybody explain how the flight path rule goes with #11? Please note that I have to inform other players too. Yes and no answers are not welcome.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Sat May 04, 2013 9:49 am

Star Shark wrote:I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.

9 would be fine if there were only one mando. Throw 2 misses the right mando.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Sat May 04, 2013 9:50 am

Simeon wrote:
PMantle wrote:
Simeon wrote:Thank you. Now that you look at the diagram #11, is the flight path ok? To me it does not stay on the correct side.

You have issues with 11, but not 13? Nothing wrong with 11 at all.

Can anybody explain how the flight path rule goes with #11? Please note that I have to inform other players too. Yes and no answers are not welcome.

11 makes the mando not once, but twice.
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