2013 Rules Changes

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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Star Shark » Sat May 04, 2013 10:54 pm

PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.

9 would be fine if there were only one mando. Throw 2 misses the right mando.


Right, but both do that. How can one of them be good and not the other? I understand that some of what is being said here indicates that once you've properly made a mando, it ceases to exist. If that's the case, both of them should be legal. However, if you still have to make the mando on the the second shot, neither example should be valid.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby andrew » Sun May 05, 2013 7:13 am

I'm thinking the mando was developed by some old-school Nintendo programmer. It was originally called the Mando Monster, which always stares straight ahead (at the teebox) and is otherwise oblivious. He likes to eat discs, and attacks whenever he sees one pass him without it going into his "mouth." The level cannot be completed without feeding him at least once.

Edit: Anyone pleased with himself for finding a glitch in the programming can relive the joy of playing Nintendo.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby mark12b » Sun May 05, 2013 10:09 am

Star Shark wrote:
Star Shark wrote:I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.

How can one of them be good and not the other? I understand that some of what is being said here indicates that once you've properly made a mando, it ceases to exist. If that's the case, both of them should be legal. However, if you still have to make the mando on the the second shot, neither example should be valid.


You have to imagine the "missed mando" lines and think about this rule of thumb:
Chuck Kennedy wrote:One way to look at the new rule is that you can only cross a missed mando line from the tee side if you already crossed it once from the back side.

When there's a double mando, there are two separate "missed" lines. If your drive (a) makes the mando and (b) crosses backwards over one of them, you still can't cross forwards over the other one as in #9.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Sun May 05, 2013 11:45 am

Star Shark wrote:
PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.

9 would be fine if there were only one mando. Throw 2 misses the right mando.


Right, but both do that. How can one of them be good and not the other? I understand that some of what is being said here indicates that once you've properly made a mando, it ceases to exist. If that's the case, both of them should be legal. However, if you still have to make the mando on the the second shot, neither example should be valid.

No they don't "both do that". 13 makes the mandos, 1 and 2, period. The two are not similar at all.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Star Shark » Sun May 05, 2013 7:01 pm

PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:
PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.

9 would be fine if there were only one mando. Throw 2 misses the right mando.


Right, but both do that. How can one of them be good and not the other? I understand that some of what is being said here indicates that once you've properly made a mando, it ceases to exist. If that's the case, both of them should be legal. However, if you still have to make the mando on the the second shot, neither example should be valid.

No they don't "both do that". 13 makes the mandos, 1 and 2, period. The two are not similar at all.


Both examples make the mando on the first shot. They only differ in HOW they miss the mando on the second shot. One goes out and around both mandos and the other has a simple, straight shot at the basket if you ignore the right side mando. This being the case, the rule is silly. Either you must always make the mandos on any shot from behind the mandos, or the mandos are not in play once they've been properly made. This OK to miss one way and not the other is logically ridiculous.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Simeon » Sun May 05, 2013 10:45 pm

Star Shark wrote:
PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:
PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.

9 would be fine if there were only one mando. Throw 2 misses the right mando.


Right, but both do that. How can one of them be good and not the other? I understand that some of what is being said here indicates that once you've properly made a mando, it ceases to exist. If that's the case, both of them should be legal. However, if you still have to make the mando on the the second shot, neither example should be valid.

No they don't "both do that". 13 makes the mandos, 1 and 2, period. The two are not similar at all.


Both examples make the mando on the first shot. They only differ in HOW they miss the mando on the second shot. One goes out and around both mandos and the other has a simple, straight shot at the basket if you ignore the right side mando. This being the case, the rule is silly. Either you must always make the mandos on any shot from behind the mandos, or the mandos are not in play once they've been properly made. This OK to miss one way and not the other is logically ridiculous.

Like Shark said, why can't we just think that after the first throw we have "made Mando status". Then we can proceed freely to the next Mando or to the basket.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby andrew » Mon May 06, 2013 5:59 am

I don't believe this hasn't been addressed yet- what if 13 rolls so that it lands clearly in front of the mando or, for that matter, all the way past the front of the mando to the other side. Can you still make the same second throw?

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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby warobert » Mon May 06, 2013 4:02 pm

andrew wrote:I don't believe this hasn't been addressed yet- what if 13 rolls so that it lands clearly in front of the mando or, for that matter, all the way past the front of the mando to the other side. Can you still make the same second throw?

Image


If I am interpreting this rule correctly, your picture would be allowed as the mando doesn't care about your disc since it crossed the "made" mando line (line between the two mandos) and arrived at its location without crossing back over it.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby andrew » Mon May 06, 2013 5:59 pm

I agree it's an okay throw, but it's just sort of weird that it is okay, and I think that's the gripe being pointed out about the rule.

Edit to add: I defy anybody to throw that second shot at a tourney and watch how much hell breaks loose. Defend yourself with, "I read it on DGR!"

Also, sorry about the egregious double negative in my previous post.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby inthedrift » Mon May 06, 2013 9:26 pm

andrew wrote:I agree it's an okay throw, but it's just sort of weird that it is okay, and I think that's the gripe being pointed out about the rule.

Edit to add: I defy anybody to throw that second shot at a tourney and watch how much hell breaks loose. Defend yourself with, "I read it on DGR!"

Also, sorry about the egregious double negative in my previous post.


Or just defend yourself with the rule book
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby andrew » Tue May 07, 2013 6:50 am

inthedrift wrote:
andrew wrote:I agree it's an okay throw, but it's just sort of weird that it is okay, and I think that's the gripe being pointed out about the rule.

Edit to add: I defy anybody to throw that second shot at a tourney and watch how much hell breaks loose. Defend yourself with, "I read it on DGR!"

Also, sorry about the egregious double negative in my previous post.


Or just defend yourself with the rule book


Good luck with that. I have the rulebook on my lap and it is not helpful. In fact, it says "A disc has passed the mandatory once it establishes a position beyond the mandatory line." Also, apparently if the second throw is thrown around the other mando, that IS a penalty, which is also nowhere in the rulebook.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby Agricolae » Tue May 07, 2013 8:05 am

andrew wrote:
inthedrift wrote:
andrew wrote:I agree it's an okay throw, but it's just sort of weird that it is okay, and I think that's the gripe being pointed out about the rule.

Edit to add: I defy anybody to throw that second shot at a tourney and watch how much hell breaks loose. Defend yourself with, "I read it on DGR!"

Also, sorry about the egregious double negative in my previous post.


Or just defend yourself with the rule book


Good luck with that. I have the rulebook on my lap and it is not helpful. In fact, it says "A disc has passed the mandatory once it establishes a position beyond the mandatory line." Also, apparently if the second throw is thrown around the other mando, that IS a penalty, which is also nowhere in the rulebook.


Agreed. It's going to be tough to convince other players that "beyond the mandatory line" means the disc can come to rest closer to the tee pad than the made mando line itself. The rule book doesn't clarify and the discussion comes down to the meaning of "beyond".
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby PMantle » Tue May 07, 2013 8:57 am

Star Shark wrote:
PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:
PMantle wrote:
Star Shark wrote:I am a little confused here, also. I'm not sure how 13 could be good and 9 isn't. Both miss one of the two mandos on the 2nd shot. 14 is obviously missed on the first shot and should go to a dz. 12 and 11 are both properly played.

9 would be fine if there were only one mando. Throw 2 misses the right mando.


Right, but both do that. How can one of them be good and not the other? I understand that some of what is being said here indicates that once you've properly made a mando, it ceases to exist. If that's the case, both of them should be legal. However, if you still have to make the mando on the the second shot, neither example should be valid.

No they don't "both do that". 13 makes the mandos, 1 and 2, period. The two are not similar at all.


Both examples make the mando on the first shot. They only differ in HOW they miss the mando on the second shot. One goes out and around both mandos and the other has a simple, straight shot at the basket if you ignore the right side mando. This being the case, the rule is silly. Either you must always make the mandos on any shot from behind the mandos, or the mandos are not in play once they've been properly made. This OK to miss one way and not the other is logically ridiculous.

I don't know what to say because I just don't follow you.
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Re: 2013 Rules Changes

Postby JHern » Tue May 07, 2013 11:33 am

Agricolae wrote:...The rule book doesn't clarify and the discussion comes down to the meaning of "beyond".


Exactly, it could be fixed easily by saying instead "A disc has passed the mandatory once it is thrown over the mandatory line AND establishes a position beyond the mandatory line." Establishing a position implies that it comes to rest, so that in the above figure the next throw would once again need to go through the mando.

Also, an easy way to change the orientation of a single mando line and make it different from the single mando rules' orientation is simply to establish a weak double mando...the other mando could even be far off the fairway in the other direction, so that it isn't really something that needs to be "passed," but it will allow the TD to orient the mando line any way they wish. You could also just pound a post into the ground, if you don't have any convenient tree or other object already in place that would establish your desired mando line.

In general, I'm not in favor of painting the ground, it doesn't work on all courses, and may even be illegal at some. I don't even like the 10m circles to be painted, the group is supposed to know what 10m looks like and make the call.
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