Body position - hit point

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Body position - hit point

Postby luma » Mon May 20, 2013 9:10 am

Just wondering if what I'm doing is wrong/not healthy or anything else...it just doesn't look right. The throw was full power, but perfect. I also throw pretty accurate atm, so there are no issues with that...
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I think this looks much better...but how do I achieve that compared to my one..?
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby seabas22 » Mon May 20, 2013 11:53 am

You've spun out of bracing the front knee/hip which is often a big power leak and inconsistent. Could also be putting more stress on the ankle.

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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby luma » Mon May 20, 2013 12:36 pm

Thanks a lot. So the way I understood it, try and not spin round but resist with the right leg so it doesn't spin away like mine does...damn why can I do all that stuff with golf (left leg), but why is it so hard to do the same in disc golf (with my right leg)... :)
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby itlnstln » Tue May 21, 2013 12:51 pm

You want to drive directly at your target with your motion. At the hit, you should be facing (roughly) 90 deg. from the target with your arm pointing (again, roughly) right at the target. Your hips, shoulders, etc. pivot past 90 deg. as a product of the momentum past the hit, not to get to the hit. Personally, I like to think about the throwing motion as driving your momentum toward the target more than a spinning motion. Any "spinning" is simply a byproduct of releasing a forward drive of power (if that makes any damn sense). IOW, think moving in a straight line to the target, not stopping a spinning motion at some arbitrary point.

Here is a pic of Paul McBeth just past the hit. Notice that he's not quite squared up to the target yet.

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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby JR » Tue May 21, 2013 7:52 pm

I've gotten better results when the rip happens when i have turned closer to the target than 90 degrees left of the target. Usually the closer i am to squared at the target the faster the disc leaves thanks to the longer acceleration=more D.

Luma you also need to look at where the plant leg is sideways relative to the angle of the disc you need and the running direction see my signature. The upper body tilts hard from the hips and you need to tighten up the lower back and deep stomach muscles to maintain your posture. It is hard to say what you were like at the rip from this picture because it is taken too late too far after the rip.

Not having a pause or having it too short can also contribute to spinning out with the right heel. That means you start the heel pivot right after the heel touches the ground. The leg should plant and remain in place for long enough to get the disc moving with the arm to the right pec or farther and the momentum twisting the hips to the right of neutral.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby bents » Wed May 22, 2013 3:29 pm

There's something else which I'm surprised JR didn't point out. Maybe because I'm wrong and it's not a problem. But with the first shot, it looks to me like your balance is off because you planted your right foot too far to the left. It looks like you're falling to the right. As JR's signature states, this puts your body at more of an anhyzer angle. It also makes things unpredictable, I think.

JR, I have a related question. Do you pay attention to where your left foot lands after the follow-through? It seems to me like it's a sign of good balance when my left foot naturally steps more or less forward, and I don't have to step way left or right.
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby bents » Wed May 22, 2013 3:32 pm

JR wrote:Luma you also need to look at where the plant leg is sideways relative to the angle of the disc you need and the running direction see my signature. The upper body tilts hard from the hips and you need to tighten up the lower back and deep stomach muscles to maintain your posture.


Nevermind, haha, JR did point it out and I missed it.
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby JR » Wed May 22, 2013 11:10 pm

Let me tell a story to answer the question. This February i tried if my leg could handle bracing at an indoor hall. It didn't fare too well and i'm still wary of trying more than a few braced throws at full power. With the too few attempts i got i was able to mirror the plant step with the follow through step with a flat throw. Something impossible at over 80-90 % run up speed with a heel pivot that i was also trying. I've reverted back to ball of the foot pivot until the leg heals up more. Christian Sandström was preparing to release a technique DVD and had put out an advert clip where he told to follow through symmetrically to the previous step in order to stay balanced and creating maximum amount of power. To me in disc golf setting accuracy and consistency gains are more important but any power increase cannot hurt if it is detectable. I have to few attempts outdoors with bracing and heel pivoting to be able to say anything about power.

Hyzer follow through needs to be asymmetrically shorter than the plant step or you risk falling down and anny needs a longer follow through step.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby itlnstln » Thu May 23, 2013 5:57 am

JR wrote:I've gotten better results when the rip happens when i have turned closer to the target than 90 degrees left of the target. Usually the closer i am to squared at the target the faster the disc leaves thanks to the longer acceleration=more D.


Depending on physiology and technique, this might change for different people. The way I throw, stopping the shoulder turn at approx. 90 deg. allows me to get the full travel of my arm, thus more whip at the hit point. Now, perhaps, we could be describing the same thing from two different points of view, but basically, my body position looks like Avery's at the hit (the rest of my form varies a bit, of course). It's not exactly 90 degrees, but it's certainly not faced up, either.

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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby luma » Thu May 23, 2013 6:27 am

Maybe those pictures help to figure out what I do wrong...(I will try and get out to make a few slow-mo-videos this afternoon, so hopefully nobody will complain about posting this in the not-video-critique-section... :shock: ) I hope I can film some of my footwork too then...I just always thought you just must not be straight towards the target or open with your feet, but as long as they're closed they are fine...

ps: I have to mention I LOVE this forum and everyone here, it's just the only way I can get better. unfortunately we have no course around 200 miles (no good players either), so I had to learn all by YouTube watching...it's just that I have tried to get the motion correct right from beginning, so you don't practice a motion with too many flaws and mistakes, because I think everyone knows, unlearning takes about 10 times longer than learning...

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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby jtowneagle » Thu May 23, 2013 7:06 am

I play tennis in addition to playing disc golf. A lot of the controlled power in both sports comes from transferring your body weight into the path of the disc (or ball). When I am teaching someone to play I tell them to imaging you are driving your shoulder into another person. If you don't have your shoulder closed when you would be hitting that person, they will roll you, but if you are properly oriented you will have a lot of power. Continue pushing that shoulder through the target, it just looks like you are opening up your shoulders early which is pulling your lower body off the line.
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby luma » Thu May 23, 2013 8:03 am

Allright, thanks, I will try that next time I'm out playing. Just been on the field, didn't find my slow-mo-cam but I think its better this way :D I think I am dropping my elbow again and having a very hard bounce, so I had quite some OAT and no control over the height and everything...boy oh boy, just when you think you might have it figured out just a little... :P

edit: I was bored again and throwing some stuff around in the park and that tip with moving the shoulder forward was AWESOME! I just need to get it into my natural throw so I don't have to think about it any more, but it felt much much better when I got it together. Just constantly move forward toward the target instead of trying to rip the disc around :) pretty logical...thanks very much anyway! I still don't know how I could play at average 990 golf last weekend with that throwing style... :D
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby JR » Fri May 24, 2013 12:49 am

itisin many top pros rip when their body points 60-80 degrees to the left of the target. If you check the articles on the main page they say the rest of us cannot give that sort of advantage to the competition. Carlsen found in his theses about long throws measuring everything concentrating only on hips and above movements that the only statistically relevant movement regarding increased exit speed with a confidence level of 95 % was how far the elbow reached back. Carlsen explained that the length of the accelerating movement led to more exit speed=more distance. Rip at body pointing 90 degrees to the left of the target means less movement thus acceleration distance from the legs and the hips that are the motor to driving the lever that is also called the arm.

jtowneagle i'm not a tennis player and don't know how things are there. In disc golf you should drive the shoulder back to front in a line from the reach back to the right pec position. After that i do not agree because the shoulder cannot move farther without ripping away from the rest of the body so it could not add more power to the throw. Which can be had when you turn the shoulders farther right than the hip twist turns right of resting position.

Luma you are short on both hip twist and shoulder turn movements and it is harder to achieve both movements when the plant step is too far to the left like you have. Bracing the plant step helps too. If you were to walk forward from the plant step with the left leg you'd risk hitting the right leg with the left and tripping. The right leg needs to move at least 20 probably 30-35 cm right of where it is in that picture series for a flat throw. You planted the right leg in an anny position but the disc left hyzer - a huge mismatch. Killing consistency as you get tired if any part of the body tires faster than the others especially. Not being straight with the body means that there is a larger than optimal arc that is traveled around the pivot point slowing down the body rotation. Which is why figure skaters do the pirouette at its fastest by staying upright and bringing the arms in crossed in front of the chest touching it.

Check out Swedish top players for how hard they whip the arm around the shoulder socket. Camilla Jernberg is probably the easiest player to see it from because another notably fast arm whipper Markus Källström is so fast that not everyone can easily spot what he's doing. Other good players to look at for arm whip from the shoulder are Jesper Lundmark, Daniel Strandberg and William Gummesson. lcgm8 channel on Youtube and Scandinavian Open 2010 has footage of each of them.

Luma tilted forward at the hips which is a perfectly valid way of forcing the nose down and limiting the apex height of the disc but there are ways that do not reduce the body rotation speed to achieve the same. One is not reaching back lower than the rip height like he did. Others are tilting the wrist more down and forcing it to stay down after the elbow chop starts with much power and gripping so that the rear of the disc is at or close to the innermost joint of the thumb and the front is way down. If you have large enough hands and a thin and not wide rimmed disc you could possibly get the front of the disc to in between the ring and middle fingers. My hands and fingers are too tiny for that so i have trouble getting the front to stay in between the index finger and middle finger seam.

Luma is right that swooping down and up with the elbow will raise the disc bad. The less you hop up and down in the steps the less the arm is moving up and down. It is possible to learn to throw accurately and consistently with non optimal form and putting matters a lot. Cleaning up form gives more distance potential reducing chances of error because error margins are larger. Timing is not as tight etc.

jtowneagle which is more powerful a thrust kick or a roundhouse kick or their very rough analogues in disc golf throws your body pointing 90 degrees to the left of the target or a 360? I agree about driving through the target when you hit or kick something but there will be more force impacting the target if you do not lock the shoulder to closed stationary but twist the shoulders through the target. It is analogous to a baseball hitter breaking the wrists from bent back to neutral and beyond in the other direction once the ball touches the bat instead of slapping the baseball with the bat with wrists locked in place. In disc golf the analogue in wrist action is not snapping the wrists at all. Not good and a huge power and spin drop. Carlsen measured 40 % of the spin of the disc to be created in the time from the wrists unbending to the rip. Similarly stopping the shoulder movement to the right pec position would cut power generation under what is possible.

Arming alone without twisting the hips and turning the shoulders can be learned to provide less movements given proper stiffness in the torso muscles for consistent underpowered approaches. Trying to rip at near full power tends to twist the hips to right killing accuracy and consistency.

jtowneagle mentioned a critical point about keeping the shoulder on the line. Yup that is very desirable and it can be achieved moving the shoulder back to front until the right pec position and then pivoting around the right heel, twisting the hips and turning the shoulders with a body position where the hips are straight and the body fairly upright perhaps a little forward if wanted and the axis of the pivot goes roughly through the right heel, right knee, right arm pit and the right shoulder. That way the shoulder pivots staying on the line only moving forward back to front even after the right pec position. The arm elbow forward then chopped will be on a parallel lines. Remember the leapfrogging joint movements that Bradley Walker drew? Still the dis can move in a straight or fairly straight but parallel a few inches left of the initial line when the arm shops depending on how the timing of you leg push, hip twist, shoulder turn, elbow chop and the wrist snap plus disc pivot goes. All of those working in unison will keep the disc moving back to front only shifting the "car lane" that the disc takes a few times from right to left for a total of only a few inches max. Which is the least of concerns if that is not the largest miss you'll ever make. So polishing the disc moving absolutely on a straight line may not be beneficial if it reduces D, accuracy or consistency.

Luma brace, brace and brace after moving the right leg a lot to the right then tighten up the core to stay upright. I would try to combat the arm swooping by doing a pre throw slow practice routine where you look at the disc at the reach back and follow it to the rip point making sure the disc never deviates from that height. Then trying to repeat how it feels in the actual throw arm feeling wise.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby itlnstln » Fri May 24, 2013 6:24 am

JR wrote:itisin many top pros rip when their body points 60-80 degrees to the left of the target. If you check the articles on the main page they say the rest of us cannot give that sort of advantage to the competition. Carlsen found in his theses about long throws measuring everything concentrating only on hips and above movements that the only statistically relevant movement regarding increased exit speed with a confidence level of 95 % was how far the elbow reached back. Carlsen explained that the length of the accelerating movement led to more exit speed=more distance. Rip at body pointing 90 degrees to the left of the target means less movement thus acceleration distance from the legs and the hips that are the motor to driving the lever that is also called the arm.


I think you and I are talking about the same thing from two different perspective. Exactly 90 degrees is not getting enough hips into the motion, sure. The pic and video I linked to show the rip point being around 60-80 degrees. My point is that some folks treat the throw as a spinning motion and not a driving motion with the misconception, in some cases, that they need to be facing directly at the target at the rip. I believe we're on the same page as far as technique, rip point, etc. are concerned. That's why I chose the word "roughly" in my OP. Looking at the video of AJ, you can tell he's not exactly 90 degrees from the target at the hit, but he's closer to 90 degrees than directly facing the target. Sorry that I don't have a protractor handy. I don't break down my throw that way, unfortunately, I just use the "feel" method.
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Re: Body position - hit point

Postby itlnstln » Fri May 24, 2013 6:24 am

JR wrote:itisin many top pros rip when their body points 60-80 degrees to the left of the target. If you check the articles on the main page they say the rest of us cannot give that sort of advantage to the competition. Carlsen found in his theses about long throws measuring everything concentrating only on hips and above movements that the only statistically relevant movement regarding increased exit speed with a confidence level of 95 % was how far the elbow reached back. Carlsen explained that the length of the accelerating movement led to more exit speed=more distance. Rip at body pointing 90 degrees to the left of the target means less movement thus acceleration distance from the legs and the hips that are the motor to driving the lever that is also called the arm.


I think you and I are talking about the same thing from two different perspective. Exactly 90 degrees is not getting enough hips into the motion, sure. The pic and video I linked to show the rip point being around 60-80 degrees. My point is that some folks treat the throw as a spinning motion and not a driving motion with the misconception, in some cases, that they need to be facing directly at the target at the rip. I believe we're on the same page as far as technique, rip point, etc. are concerned. That's why I chose the word "roughly" in my OP. Looking at the video of AJ, you can tell he's not exactly 90 degrees from the target at the hit, but he's closer to 90 degrees than directly facing the target. Sorry that I don't have a protractor handy. I don't break down my throw that way, unfortunately, I just use the "feel" method.
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