Hiprotation or snap

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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby seabas22 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:57 pm

Might be my alter ego. :wink:

The Move ties into what Feldy talks about and explains it a bit more in-depth. Feldy also has the most ball golfish form. Greg Norman's rear foot slide is also very similar to Feldy's which is also like a hockey slap shot.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby masterbeato » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:33 pm

Upper body timing is far more superior than lower body anything, any old day of the week considering that's what ejects the disc.

To answer the OP, if I were to choose one or the other; snap is the most important thing. Snap = power/distance/control.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby fusan » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:59 pm

Seabas22
Another thing Ive notticed in your videos here and on dgcr is maintaining the tension of the coil. I dont know important it is but in regular golf
it is. If you loose that tension from winding the coil, it often result in a colapse. But how does that relate to Disc golf?

Beto
Thanks, Im slowly realising that I can throw pretty long from stand still by only focusing on the snap. Timing seem to be the biggest issue. I feel like
all that power from pulling the disc in close gets me a little out of sync sometimes. Is a proces and needs much more time on the range.
Im not trying to implement the wrist extention yet. I need to focus on slowing down the shoulders and stopping the elbow untill it is automatic I guess.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby seabas22 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:47 pm

I agree snap is important although I have a hard separating power in terms of upper body vs lower body. If you truly want to find out how far you can throw without the lower body, then sit on the ground and try throwing. There are so many varying degrees of getting your lower body into the throw as I also believe there is with the upper body. The main thing is to find leverage or not lose it. There are body positions that people get into that prohibit snap, I know Blake and Dan have said this as well and I've been there. As far as people that get coiled, and then uncoil before weight transfer they don't have any or much mass behind the hit and are wasting a lot of energy, although they may still throw somewhat far. What typically happens when they learn to get more lower body is that the throw is much more effortless and accurate.

Also you shouldn't really be pulling the disc into the power zone. Your weight transfer will more or less bring it in.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby JR » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:19 pm

IDK where the power zone is supposed to be at the accuracy of an inch so for my physiology the disc can be brought to the left side without moving the arm at all by the first 90 degree rotation of the body that ends where the pause starts. It is another matter if anyone is gonna max out their D starting the arm pull at this time. Some may have the sweet spot there and others earlier or later. The more explosive you are the later you can start to accelerate and the more powerful you are the earlier you can start because then the acceleration can be maintained for longer.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby itlnstln » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:19 am

It all comes back to working from the hit back. Once I understood how the disc was supposed to come out of my hand, the rest followed pretty easily since I knew what the hit was supposed to feel like. Because of this, I find that Blake's hammer drills, even with their minor imperfections (per Blake, not me), are more valuable than the stuff like the towel drill. You can pop a towel all day long and not hit a disc for shit. Conversely, you can learn to hit a disc, then figure out, based on your own body, how to add power to the shot. Even I'm still learning as once I start to get above ~75% power I start spraying due to mistiming. Even then, I can still push a Teebird out past 400' regularly.

On the other hand, I don't really like to throw with much more power than 75-80% on the course anyway, so I haven't been very motivated to practice.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby fusan » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:10 am

I started to implement the inward bending of the forearm few weeks ago. This instantly added length to the throw.
When I get it "right", I allmost can't hold the disc. My wrist bends inward and my grip gets weak so the result is an early release.
It only gets worse when I focus on turning the shoulders faster. So I try to keep a stiff wrist from the begining to the end of the throw.
It feels a little awkward and tensed. Not only at the wrist, but it feels like the whole forearm is tensed and that affects whip of the elbow to.
Im aware of the loose (from the begining) to tight (at the Right Pec) grip but it is hard to focus on wile thinking about all the other new stuff.
I guess I have to keep focus at one thing at a time at this point.
I feel that the potential of this Technic is huge. It is more relaxing and feels like the arm is on for the ride untill the disc is close to the chest,
then it leaps foreward like a spring with great velocity. It is a very timing demanding technique, compared to my other one, but with much less effort.
I dont even think about stopping the shoulders, extending the wrist, start with the hips and getting closer to the right Pec.
Though it is a big improvement allready, theres still a long way ahead in order to implement the other aspects, but I think that Im on the
right track at least, no?
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby JR » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:36 am

If you stop the shoulder turn when the disc is at the left side or farther back and restart the shoulder turn after the left leg has pushes, the hips twisted after the right pec position has been reached you are probably in the correct sequence of events and you are right in that it is very timing intensive.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby fusan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:09 am

The rear leg pushes after the disc at the rigt pec? I dont follow.
I thought the rear leg pushes until the disc is at right pec, then the shoulders stop/slow down, the elbow chop and the forearm launches out.
What would be the pupose to (keep) pushing after the disc is at the right pec? I mean if you push that late, doesent the make the shoulders open and
throw to the right with lack of snap?
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby JR » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:37 am

Momentum. Especially with a run up the momentum will turn your body from a full 180 degree reach back so that the body will face 90 degrees left of the target and the disc will come to the left side rhbh without the rear leg pushing at all. Then comes the pause during which you pull the disc to the right pec position. From there you add to the power when it counts=late for a late acceleration. This is where the real power is generated and you need all the muscles to fire in order to create maximum acceleration along with great speed bu i'd say that speed is king so if you cannot get max acceleration and max speed to coincide at the rip the acceleration needs to take the lower priority. How to get max acceleration? Usage of each muscle and kinetic chain. That means that the left toe starts the real power generation and progressively each muscle group upward toward the index finger and thumb tip needs to fire in lower to higher firing sequence. That will add to the snap not sap it.

Pushing immediately upon the plant step landing with the left leg means that the knee will be straight at the right pec and it is physically impossible to push any more with the left leg. Try accelerating with the leg then. So you're short of the leg power upon strong legging (relative of strong arming). How do you compensate for that? You cannot. Which is why the knee should straighten as a result of post pause push at about the rip time.

Late pushing with the rear leg will help in getting more squared to the target than most pros do and it will generate more power for you. Here is why timing and coordination of the different body parts moving synced to each other is crucial. If any part moves too early or late you will not be able to pull the disc in a straight line which kills accuracy, consistency and power generation. This is good news because you can stand still and without throwing move in slow motion in order to keep the disc in a straight line. Which needs to happen in actual throws so you can drill the proper sequence of events. A large mirror helps too in addition to watching the disc from the reach back into the hit point. Executed properly your body can almost face the target say 11-11.30 o'clock with the target at 12 o'clock at the rip and the disc has moved in a straight line. Well maybe for an inch or two thanks to the arc that comes from the elbow straightening and wrist snap. So you have a meter to gauge your progress against. If you pull to the right you were early in some part of the body turning movements. Legs, hips or shoulders. Usually timing is king but those misses can come from having too loose muscles in those areas so tightening the muscles up to around 50-80 % of maximum might help depending on how fast you run and how strong your muscles are and how much weight you have so people vary a lot.

A tip for getting late power from the legs is to keep a lower stance keeping the knees at least 10 degrees bent at the right pec position.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby fusan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:51 pm

This really contridicts with my view of the throw. Im not saying I have the correct understanding of it, but I dont think I get what you mean then.
Must be that English is not my native language or mayby we talk about the same things but with different words and phrases.
Mayby we do have two different understandings of the throw. Form what I understand, you say to generate real power with the legs, torso, shoulders,
arm and wrist when the disc is at the Right Pec position.
Ive allways belived that the legs start to push/rotate the weight foreward first, then everything (hips, torso and shouldes) follows untill the disc is at the
left pec. Then the pause untill the disc is at the right pec. From there, the elbow chops out, followed by forearm while the wrist extends. Its all arm from
the right pec. No rotation or power from any other part of the body. Well mayby a little (slow) rotation from the shoulders. After the release of the disc,
the arm continues and drag the shoulders the rest of the way through the follow through.
That is what Bradleys Closed shoulder drill is all about, right? The release he is talking about, just like with a golf club and the bat. Building up the
momentum with the large and slower muscles (feet, hips, torso and shoulders) and release with the smaller muscles (the arm). Thats what creates the
whip effect.
Did I misinterpret that drill, along with the rest of the theory of the throw? Im a little confused now.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby JR » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:27 pm

Your above description sounds like you understood correctly what i meant and what the differences are between your understanding of things and what the articles on the main page say and what i have found to be more beneficial for me and many others too. A couple of muscular guys say they throw farther starting from the plant with the rear leg push and the arm pull at 100 % muscle effort from the reach back at the plant. That might lead to accelerating throughout the throw for really athletic strong people which is the goal for good form but they are in the minority. Everyone needs to find their best distance acceleration spot because there are variations in muscle power, explosiveness, nervous system speed etc. Not to mention different body part lengths and relative power between the body parts. There is little point in trusting the arms to provide power if you have weenie arms and olympic level leg strength for example. Since people gain power over time it is good to compare timings and acceleration rate changes at least annually.

IIRC and you'd have to ask Brad about it is that the closed shoulder drill was meant as a snap learning tool not as a method of throwing. I would like you to to do a form comparison on a field with the right pec drill done in two ways. One way is with the shoulders and hips closed and the left leg not pushing at all with the knee being straight with the right side pointed at the target at the rip and the other way is to start with both knees bent, twisting the hips and turning the shoulders so that the torso is almost facing the target. See which way gets you farther. For me the latter way produces more distance in the right pec drill and in an actual throw.

Another advantage to getting the body closer to the target is getting an earlier eye contact with the target which helps in aiming. A con is that the timing early on is critical -if you are too aggressive and twist the hips before the disc has moved to the right of the left side you're gonna hit your left side with the disc.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby fusan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:31 am

I got the impression that you think Im strong arming. While I dont think it is the case, I could be wrong.
I dont start the acceleration of the arm all the way from the reachback. That would be strong arming, in my understanding. I start the acceleration
of the arm from the right pec. The only thing my arm is doing from 180 deg away from the target, is folding in to the chest.
Theres no forewad movement of the (upper) arm untill the shoulders are 90 deg away from the taget and the disc is close to the right pec.
The upper arm is locked to the shoulders in an 90 deg angle and on for the ride when the shoulders rotate from 180 to 90 deg.
Once I reach 90 deg away from the target, I allready have a good deal of momentum from the legs, hips and shoulders. This momentum is then
transffered to ejecting the arm, by straightning it towards the target without the big movement from the other bodyparts.

Your approach, as I understand it, is to let the foreward movement of the runup and the shoulders, get you in to 90 deg from the target.
Then pause the shoulders and let the disc slide in to the right pec. From there you push/rotate with the rear leg, turn/slide the hips, shoulders,
straighten the arm and extending the wrist.

The only difference between my current throw and what I understand from your description, is when to apply the power from the legs, hips, shoulders,
arm and wrist. I build up the monentum from legs, hips and shoulders, before the disc, is at the right pec and then fire off the arm, while you wait until
the disc is at the right pec and then fire legs, hips, shoulder and arm.
In both cases theres no active foreward movement from the (upper)arm untill the shoulders are 90 deg from the target.

Regarding the two right pec drills you mention, I understand your point. But as I explained before, I have build a lot of power from legs, hips and
shoulders before I reach 90 deg away from the target. That energy is transferred to the arm while it is straightening.

The thing I get from fireing the legs, hips and shoulders after the disc is at the right pec, is the arm trying to keep up with the shoulder rotation
and never really chop out straight.

Am I missing something here?
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby JR » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:52 pm

The elbow must be chopped straight in order to keep the disc moving in a straight line. I do move the upper arm during the pause in order to move the disc from the left side to the right. So i do not lock the upper arm to the shoulder at a 90 degree angle.

What you are missing is doing those right pec drills in two ways and throwing in both ways to see how far each goes.

I have lower back trouble and restricted movement even when i'm forcing the movement and thus i have been less able to turn toward the target than before even after my ankle has healed to allow for bracing=stopping the right foot in place relative to the ground after the plant. Now i'm as little open as top pros mostly even if i brace grr. Since i gained arm power the D is fairly similar to a little better. The slower i go the better i can engage the hips and brace thus getting closer to the target with the body pointing position at the rip. Run ups suck but x steps work especially if started slowly. Which gave me about 30' less D than maximum rup up at full speed. So i have to learn better. And try to overcome my injuries.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Hiprotation or snap

Postby fusan » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:14 am

Let me quote myself...

fusan wrote:Regarding the two right pec drills you mention, I understand your point. But as I explained before, I have build a lot of power from legs, hips and
shoulders before I reach 90 deg away from the target. That energy is transferred to the arm while it is straightening.


I see a fair amount of pro players (Mcbeth, KJ, Kallstrom) doing it that way, or so it seems. They start by pushing the legs to rotate the hips while
bending the elbow inward. Once the disc at in the Right Pec and the shoulders are 90 deg from the target, they fire out with the arm with not so
much movement from the other bodyparts.
I doesent seem like they actively rotate the shoulders from the right Pec.
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