Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Golf Discs, Bags, Baskets, Videos, and other Disc Golf Related Equipment

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby abarker » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:31 pm

Prodigy has surprised us by releasing four fairway drivers at once. Even more surprising, one of them is labeled the F7, which either means this disc is beyond understable, or else Prodigy is planning on releasing a few more understable, but not quite as understable Fairway drivers in the future.

For those that like Prodigy, but find the distance drivers a little too much, these drivers are long awaited.

These discs are available for pre-order now, and will be shipped as soon as July 11th. Here's the links:

http://infinitediscs.com/prodigy-f1-2/
http://infinitediscs.com/prodigy-f2/
http://infinitediscs.com/prodigy-f3/
http://infinitediscs.com/prodigy-f7/
Find The Perfect Disc
http://InfiniteDiscs.com

Image
abarker
Noob
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:49 pm
Location: Smithfield, UT
Favorite Disc: Latitude 64 Saint

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JHern » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:53 pm

Wow, 4 Destroyer-like molds, 4 mids, 4 putters, and now 4 fairway driver molds, brings the total to 16 molds...a production mold costs about $20K, so this is over $300K spent on molds so far! They've spent at least $100K on plastic, and another $100K-$200K on production costs, so I estimate that Prodigy is a $600K+ start-up, if not more. The probability of this being a single investor is very small, they probably got a bunch of people throwing their money into the pot...
Last edited by JHern on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby iacas » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:08 pm

JHern wrote:Wow, 4 Destroyer-like molds, 4 mids, 4 putters, and now 4 fairway driver molds, brings the total to 16 molds...a production mold costs about $20K, so this is over $300Kspent on molds so far! They've spent at least $100K on plastic, and another $100K-$200K on production costs, so I estimate that Prodigy is a $600K+ start-up.

If the molds cost $20k. Cut that in half (i.e. maybe someone does them at cost or is a part of the profit sharing or something?) and that number drops quite a bit.

Of course, if you know for certain they paid $20k for each mold, then that's different. :)

P.S. And don't some companies mix and match molds - some discs might use the same top but different bottoms, no?
Erik from Erie, PA • PDGA #55398

Erie Disc Golf on FacebookOn the Web
iacas
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am
Location: Erie, PA
Favorite Disc: Volt

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JHern » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:39 pm

iacas wrote:...If the molds cost $20k. Cut that in half (i.e. maybe someone does them at cost or is a part of the profit sharing or something?) and that number drops quite a bit.

Of course, if you know for certain they paid $20k for each mold, then that's different. :)

P.S. And don't some companies mix and match molds - some discs might use the same top but different bottoms, no?


Yes, it's possible it could be halved, although machinists aren't cheap (most are unionized) and it isn't easy to get around the basic cost requirements, even by mixing and matching pieces. Outside investors often approach disc companies saying that they want to invest in a mold, since it is one of the biggest capital hurdles to overcome.

Also, thinking about it more, there are probably higher costs in other areas, which would offset any savings in busting out molds. E.g., Phil told me he had over a dozen employees earlier this year, which is already pushing $300K+ in annual labor costs (even if paying minimum wage)...add the $10K+ minimum support to a very large sponsored team (well over $100K in total in total support), probably at least $50K in facility costs, $50K in other facilities costs (cleaning, utilities, heating, electricity, water, etc.) and even without the molds we're at over half a million for the first year's costs. Add plastic supply and molds and such, and it isn't unrealistic to start seeing initial start-up costs getting closer to a million.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby veganray » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:45 pm

Image
Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.


Cheers & chings!
Vegan Ray
formerly #21579
veganray
Plastic Fondler
User avatar
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:29 pm
Location: the defense table
Favorite Disc: DX Gremlin

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JeffzeNub » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:02 pm

You guys do remember they sell these things as well? I know they are no where near turning a profit, but this is pretty standard industrial manufacturing cost/return model. Disc golf has come a long way and I don't think it would be a tough sell to investors if you can show a demand for quality products.
JeffzeNub
Noob
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:25 pm
Location: Chucktown, SC
Favorite Disc: Teebird

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JHern » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:13 pm

JeffzeNub wrote:You guys do remember they sell these things as well? I know they are no where near turning a profit, but this is pretty standard industrial manufacturing cost/return model. Disc golf has come a long way and I don't think it would be a tough sell to investors if you can show a demand for quality products.


New businesses don't expect to turn a profit for the first several years. They start paying later...but only if they're successful. Prodigy probably needs to capture at least 1/3 total market share to be successful in the long run (or grow the sport more to compensate, although their target market isn't newbs).
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JeffzeNub » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:16 am

Prodigy probably needs to capture at least 1/3 total market share to be successful in the long run (or grow the sport more to compensate, although their target market isn't newbs).


"Exactly how many people play disc golf recreationally is difficult to pin down. The Pro Disc Golf Association says it has 9,000 members and claims, perhaps optimistically, that 500,000 people play the sport regularly. According to the association's course directory (http://www.pdga.org), there are more than 1,600 courses in the United States, with Texas's 126 leading the way."
In Disc Golf, Stardom Avoids You, and You Avoid the Salad Bar -Tim Sultan 2005 New York Times

I've been looking for the highest pdga number I could find from 2005 to try and do a ratio comparison, but I can't find anything solid. Regardless, my point is you cannot compare a growing market to a standard business market such as ball golf for example. For the most part, almost everyone knows what ball golf is and has made a conscience decision to either try it or not. With disc golf, there are still many people who have never heard of it or have a skewed opinion of what it actually is. More people are playing in tournaments and tournament payouts are getting bigger.
If the sport continues to grow as it is, any company that can stay afloat and continue to produce innovative(pun not intended :lol: ), quality products, can ride on dg's back, all the way to profitability. :D

Anyone have a pdga number from 2005 or know a ballpark of what it was?
JeffzeNub
Noob
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:25 pm
Location: Chucktown, SC
Favorite Disc: Teebird

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby veganray » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:03 pm

JeffzeNub wrote:my point is you cannot compare a growing market to a standard business market such as ball golf for example. For the most part, almost everyone knows what ball golf is and has made a conscience decision to either try it or not. With disc golf, there are still many people who have never heard of it or have a skewed opinion of what it actually is. More people are playing in tournaments and tournament payouts are getting bigger.
If the sport continues to grow as it is, any company that can stay afloat and continue to produce innovative(pun not intended :lol: ), quality products, can ride on dg's back, all the way to profitability.
^^^^^^^

One can replace each instance of "disc golf" with "competitive felching" and the argument is equally inane and the conclusion equally bogus. Try it!
Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.


Cheers & chings!
Vegan Ray
formerly #21579
veganray
Plastic Fondler
User avatar
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:29 pm
Location: the defense table
Favorite Disc: DX Gremlin

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JHern » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:38 pm

...
Last edited by JHern on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JHern » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:53 pm

...
Last edited by JHern on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JHern » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:54 pm

JeffzeNub wrote:
Prodigy probably needs to capture at least 1/3 total market share to be successful in the long run (or grow the sport more to compensate, although their target market isn't newbs).


"Exactly how many people play disc golf recreationally is difficult to pin down. The Pro Disc Golf Association says it has 9,000 members and claims, perhaps optimistically, that 500,000 people play the sport regularly. According to the association's course directory (http://www.pdga.org), there are more than 1,600 courses in the United States, with Texas's 126 leading the way."
In Disc Golf, Stardom Avoids You, and You Avoid the Salad Bar -Tim Sultan 2005 New York Times

I've been looking for the highest pdga number I could find from 2005 to try and do a ratio comparison, but I can't find anything solid. Regardless, my point is you cannot compare a growing market to a standard business market such as ball golf for example. For the most part, almost everyone knows what ball golf is and has made a conscience decision to either try it or not. With disc golf, there are still many people who have never heard of it or have a skewed opinion of what it actually is. More people are playing in tournaments and tournament payouts are getting bigger.
If the sport continues to grow as it is, any company that can stay afloat and continue to produce innovative(pun not intended :lol: ), quality products, can ride on dg's back, all the way to profitability. :D


Yes, you're basically re-stating what I was saying, just in more words. Basically, if you capture X% of the total market in several years, but you need 33% of the present-sized market to become profitable, then the sport needs to grow by a factor of 33/X to compensate if it turns out that X<33.

Innova has a lock on the newbie market since their DX discs are much cheaper and new players aren't willing to buy in for more money at the beginning (and disc golfers aren't generally an affluent market, anyways). Therefore, much of any initial swell in grass roots growth in disc golf goes to Innova, only some fraction of the older players will go for more expensive (but certainly higher quality) plastic like Prodigy, after 1-2 years playing (and only if they get hooked, which is a fraction of the newbies). Some will stay with Innova, since they still have a lock on distribution networks and retailers in many places where growth could be very rapid. Also, consider the rising competition from other young disc makers, Lat64 is doing very well and is pretty much a mature company in its own right, Legacy is picking up steam and already has a hardcore fan base (they've been buying the molds themselves, paid for by sweat/pouring concrete), MVP makes great putters and mids (although their lack of drivers is hurting them), Westside and Prodiscus make excellent discs and are growing (but both still have serious distribution problems), etc.. Gateway still has the best-selling putter on the market, and Discraft has the best selling disc period, although this could easily change in the next few years if competitors make better standard putters (could it be the Clutch?) and mid-range discs (Innova is trying, but not yet successful).

This dynamic will change once a company begins mass marketing discs made in China.

In any case, the market is not at all certain, and as it usually goes in start-ups there could be a lot of bad feelings and fallouts if a business with heavy initial investment doesn't turn a profit in the desired time scale. I hope this is not what happens, because I would love to see a successful Prodigy, they are testing an important model in disc golf and the sport is better off with them than without them.

JeffzeNub wrote:Anyone have a pdga number from 2005 or know a ballpark of what it was?


They got to 25000 in mid-2004 and 30000 in mid-2006, so split the difference: 27500 in 2005.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby zj1002 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:59 am

I am pretty sure a lot of the drivers share the same molds pieces they just change the size of the nose spacer
Omega - QMS - MD2 - QJLS - OLF/S - DD - Scorpius
Tell me and I'll forget; Show me and I may remember; Involve me and I'll understand
zj1002
metroid cannon
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:52 pm
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby butter » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:51 am

i see this 20K per mold number thrown around a lot. now im not in manufacturing or machining industry, but as a person who's always been sort of a mechanic and being a senior studying engineering, i find 20K absurdly high. It would take me maybe a day to draw up the design in a CAD software (i know it needs to be tweaked but this part of the design should be almost free), talk to someone who knows a bit about injection molding, add ur vents/injection points, throw it in the CNC, done. i know contracting out the CNC has got to be spendy, but 20K?
butter
Noob
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:12 pm
Favorite Disc: Dx EX

Re: Prodigy Fairway Drivers

Postby JHern » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:15 am

butter wrote:i see this 20K per mold number thrown around a lot. now im not in manufacturing or machining industry, but as a person who's always been sort of a mechanic and being a senior studying engineering, i find 20K absurdly high. It would take me maybe a day to draw up the design in a CAD software (i know it needs to be tweaked but this part of the design should be almost free), talk to someone who knows a bit about injection molding, add ur vents/injection points, throw it in the CNC, done. i know contracting out the CNC has got to be spendy, but 20K?


Yes, I've asked machinists, and this is the number they usually quote. It also depends on the quality of the metal, you could use cheaper stuff that is easier to machine, but it will deform over time, the product will be inconsistent, and you'll need to buy a new one again after an unacceptably small number of injection cycles.

The nose piece itself is probably significantly less expensive than the whole, the top and bottom should be the most expensive by far...if you can swap out nose pieces and fiddle with the same top and bottom pieces, then you could have several molds for much cheaper than having those molds for themselves Of course, this puts more long-term stress on the top and bottom pieces, so that they wear down faster with time...

...also, if you only bought different nose pieces, then you could only mold up one kind of disc at a time, which limits your production rates! Prodigy has bought many injection molding machines, and I'm certain they want to be making all of the fairway drivers on different machines simultaneously.
Last edited by JHern on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Next

Return to Equipment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests