Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow mid

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Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow mid

Postby Karhumies » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:33 am

I am building a simple, slow control bag for wooded courses. I am looking for a slightly OS approach disc/slow mid to complement my Comets. A disc which does not skip, and preferably will not roll frequently either. Predictability is key here. The disc can have a bead.

RHBH dominant

170 Soft Magic - putt-putter, not an approach disc

??? Mystery Disc - slightly overstable putter/slow midrange, for controlled parking approaches
173 ESP Comet - straight, still in the mail (finally a new batch became available, yay!)
173 X Comet, new - slightly understable
173 X Comet, beaten - understable

150 Ladyline FD Jackal - longer wooded control drives

So far, I have tried an Opto Pain, Pro D Drone, Z Comet, Basic JOKERi and Star Rancho Roc in the mystery slot. With Z Comet, the amount of fade seems to be different based on the speed of the throw, making it less predictable for me than the other Comet plastics. I am looking for something with more glide and slightly less overstability than the Star Rancho Roc. Pain was slightly too OS. Pro-D Drone was too fast and kept skipping behind the basket. JOKERi had an annoying tendency to bounce to its side and roll away after landing close to the basket.

Some ideas for the mystery disc slot:
KC Pro Roc - I was throwing 174 KC Pro Roc when I started out 2 years ago, but it did not have enough glide for my liking so I went to Fuse, and from there to Comet. But maybe at a lighter weight (170 or below) it could work? The benefit of the Roc molds is that I can be sure it does not turn over in the woods.
MVP Ion - I have tried 174 Glow Ion as a putt-putter some time ago, and loved it until the weather conditions became wet and slippery (bad grip). Switched over to Magic. Never really tried it as an approach disc, but I guess it could work quite well.
??? MD2 - I disliked a domey 175 C-MD2, but a flatter P-line might work?

Medium Wizard, Gold Mace, Star Lycan, Pro-D Ringer, S M2, DX Roc, DX Classic Roc, Elite Z Wasp - these all seem like valid options, but I don't have any experience from them.


Also, my power is starting to get 150 weight Jackal a bit flippy, but not consistently strong enough for throwing a 168 D-line FD Jackal predictably enough for the whole round. If you can suggest another fairway driver, probably around 160-165 weight range, that would be appreciated as well.
Maybe a 167-169 Neutron Volt?


Yet one more option would be to acquire another 150 Champ Leopard to replace the one I sold some time ago to a friend who was beginning the sport, and use it both as a fairway driver in the woods as well as to fill the slightly OS approach disc slot. That disc powers down very well.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby Karhumies » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:09 am

After doing some Roc-related internet research, a 170 Star San Marino Roc might be suitable. 4 4 0 2 is basically the stats I am looking for. That or a slightly beaten-in 170-172 DX Rancho Roc.

If I want something more OS, I already have that 175 Star Rancho Roc.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby JR » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:15 pm

DX Rancho Roc starts out too OS for your wants but a lighter weight would be better. Unfortunately the consistency of Rocs even in KC has gone down the tubes and i imagine the best bet is the DX breaking it in but if you're in a hurry an Ontario Roc or Sanny could work too. Powergrip has (had) differently named flatter C MD2s earlier this year bu i don't know if this was a fluke never to be repeated. The structure and plastic seems solid so breaking it in takes forever and they start out more OS than your power allows. It straightens out nicely thrown at 120 meter warp speed disc power. Another option would be a lighter X Buzz. It is not as overstable as Z Buzz and it is faster longer but the plastic makes it stick better than Z bending some at landing. It sounds like your power is not too much to make skipping an X Buzz a problem like it is at 120+ meter driver power. Buzzes glide less weight for weight than Rocs but the X glides a littler better than Z and at lighter than max weight glide pretty nicely. And the added speed more than compensates for the distance of the Roc. Buzz is on average about 3-4 meters longer for me than the Roc.

Those are the traditional recommendations but there's a new kid on the block that will probably not be available for long. King Cobra is actually better than the roc and the Buzz and that is a mouthful. It is in between those discs in speed but glides way more than either so skippage is not an issue. In a mild rear wind i put the KC farther than any other mid ever including the much faster yet glidey Coyote that shared the previous rear wind record with the Buzz ripped at full power. Those flew 105 m tops and the KC took the top position with 107 m. The KC does not suffer from release difficulty shape wise and is quite HSS without a lot of but a definite LSS. People have described some variations in theirs but my 180 and 175 are nice. The 175 turns in mild headwinds by a couple of degrees at full power for me and the 180 won't but it too will turn in moderate headwinds. In other words the KC is a long mid that does not skip badly and has a nicely low power requirement with plenty of wind tolerance at your power with good resistance to flipping. AKA a pretty damn nice straight disc at power with still predictable mild fade and at your power probably a decent fade while being less fading than the Pain.

150 Champ Valk is pretty nice at that power level and won't change quickly at all if it comes in the clearer older Champ. Dunno if there are cloudier ones around that are softer and will break in quicker.Valks power down well especially at 150.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby aerodriver » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:43 pm

Vibram Obex has been good for me in the overstable approach category, it's Buzzz/Roc fast but works its way left all the time. Hasn't skipped on me like my Buzzz's in various plastics have. Try a Medium X-Link around 175g or whatever you're comfortable throwing.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby keltik » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:41 am

Vibram VP maybe? what about a good old fashioned Rhyno?
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby PMantle » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:48 am

Really loving my Suspect. Sentinel taking a break. The shape is closer to my Pure and Zone. Helping my woods releases.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby JR » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:46 am

aerodriver wrote:Vibram Obex has been good for me in the overstable approach category, it's Buzzz/Roc fast but works its way left all the time. Hasn't skipped on me like my Buzzz's in various plastics have. Try a Medium X-Link around 175g or whatever you're comfortable throwing.


Medium Obex is a good choice for new DX Rancho Roc stability that stay for a long time abd has grip unlike the firm version. I am not sure if it fades too much for what karhumies wants. I don't have an exact handle on how much fade he prefers at which normal power level and how much he powers down how often.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow mid

Postby Fightingthetide » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:04 pm

JR wrote:Those are the traditional recommendations but there's a new kid on the block that will probably not be available for long. King Cobra is actually better than the roc and the Buzz and that is a mouthful. It is in between those discs in speed but glides way more than either so skippage is not an issue. In a mild rear wind i put the KC farther than any other mid ever including the much faster yet glidey Coyote that shared the previous rear wind record with the Buzz ripped at full power. Those flew 105 m tops and the KC took the top position with 107 m. The KC does not suffer from release difficulty shape wise and is quite HSS without a lot of but a definite LSS. People have described some variations in theirs but my 180 and 175 are nice. The 175 turns in mild headwinds by a couple of degrees at full power for me and the 180 won't but it too will turn in moderate headwinds. In other words the KC is a long mid that does not skip badly and has a nicely low power requirement with plenty of wind tolerance at your power with good resistance to flipping. AKA a pretty damn nice straight disc at power with still predictable mild fade and at your power probably a decent fade while being less fading than the Pain.


If I could...

I throw DX Rocs and love them. I have a fresh DX from a good stiff blend that has nice dome. It glides and finishes left like a mini Teebird. I can get it to around 300'. I also have every other level of stability I need in different stages of wear. Also, I'm very familiar with good C MD2's.

Are you saying King Cobras work better in the wind than both? Or well enough? My stable DX Roc isn't entirely trustworthy in the wind, unless I get a really clean release. I see all these new molds and keep rolling my eyes (not that they are bad, but I'm not in the mood to change a good thing), but you may have actually sparked my interest.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby JR » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:48 pm

Hard blend flattish DX Rancho Rocs are the best Rocs forstraight while being able to handle wind after a little breaking in and even more wind resistance when new. Rocs can be very wind tolerant as shown by Markus källström at the Dutch Open 2010 throwing into a pretty bad left front headwind faaaaaaaaaar not flipping fading. Rocs vary a lot and spin varies a lot. I lost my flat C MD2 too soon to say how it really fares in all conditions. It is probably a hair more HSS and LSS than the KC but definitely more power requirement, much less glide thus significantly less distance. The distance difference is so large it is like two roles mid for MD2 and slow short FW driver for the King Cobra. So you can say the KC is a tweener competing against Stalkers (more hss and lss faster and less gliding and longer than KC), Squalls (faster longer) and Coyotes (faster flipping at power unlike KC). Storm would also compete being less HSS but not many throw those any more. The preferences and bag decides which to use. Make no mistake C MD2 flat, Roc, Buzz, Stalker, Squall, Coyote and King Cobra are all first rate discs and depending on the winds and how versatile you want one mold to be role wise each could be used with some pros and cons against each other. Those small but significant differences decide what each player should use. Don't forget the Buzz that likes more power than the KC and is almost as long (faster less gliding almost as long but unforgiving to being underpowered). I think the glide of the KC makes it so forgiving to underpowering on long shots that it makes it great for keeping consistency vs power hogs like Buzzes. Rocs don't even compare distance wise so there is not that much overlap as one could think. King Cobra is like glidier first step of breaking in Rancho DX Roc HSS with the LSS of Sanny Roc going easily 20'+ farther. Roc is long downwind so the great downwind D of the KC is not as superior as the calm weather D but still longer.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby JHern » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:00 am

Champ Rhyno is a classic, and now the SP Breaker turns out to be a great OS approach disc, which powers both up and down very easily (although I don't consider it a good putter, per se). DGA team is kicking serious ass with it in tourneys this year.

Icon Clutch is another great choice if you want something slightly faster, although they usually aren't hugely OS, if that is important to you.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby Flipflat » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:40 pm

Beat Pro D Zone.
I would like your X-Wasps, please.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby Karhumies » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:52 pm

JR is correct in that Buzzz is too power hungry mold for me to play a complete round with successfully. I have tried Z, FLX and Titanium at 170g. 170g Pro D Buzzz worked out the best for me, but that's not an OS disc, so it's in a fall-in-between loser role. Have not tried out X plastic though.

JR is also correct in that Valkyrie is my current driver choice, although I took it out from my bag for a while to focus more on my mids and putters. 170 DX is nice, although it could be a bit lighter, and I have been warned that DX Valks wear down rapidly, making it somewhat costly to get attached to in the long run. 154 Star is nice but not as glidey as the DX. 138 Starlite was too light and flippy, so I gave it to my gf who uses it nicely as an all-around beginner disc. 150 Champ sounds like the perfect middle ground here and therefore it does end up on my buy list.

Anyways, I just recently fell in love with the predictability of 174g Westside Pursi (Warship) as a stable = straight versatile midrange. It's really a low-effort placement disc for me, and it handles both low and high power shots excellently and very predictably. However, the problem becomes what to match it with in the mid slots? It's almost a fairway driver length disc, but with a midrange rim, and it does not start out OS enough to fulfill the slightly OS mid role mentioned in the opening post. It also pushes Comet out into the understable mid slot. Makes me wonder if there should be a disc that is closer to Warship flight there such as the Leopard, but then again Leopard has the "wrong" rim (different from Warship). I guess that Tursas would be a candidate for US mid. When I try to search for "similar to Pursi but a bit more OS" I come up with Lat 64 Medius. But I have no idea what this disc will be like, and how it powers down to my arm speed. King Cobra sounds decent for the role as well. DX Cobra has been very easy to throw at low arm speeds, and it they have re-molded that into something more OS, it sounds like a nice disc indeed.

Also, I have started using a Warlock as a stable short range driver since Warship is quite a long disc and can glide past the basket on short holes. Also using Warlock for very short approaches from outside putt range, as well as long gos at the basket (got a 20m uphill approach into the basket just yesterday for a birdie with the Warlock, so yay). Could use a slightly more OS disc. Will probably try a Medium/Soft Wizard for that, mainly because the overall feel should not be too different from my putter of choice, Magic. Although a San Marino Roc does sound tempting to avoid the process of beating in a Rancho DX, it's quite a different mold disc from my putter.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby Karhumies » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:00 pm

Oh, and my Warship is BT Plastic. I guess a VIP one would be slightly more overstable, especially when the BT one begins to wear and become understable (will probably fill my US mid slot eventually). But anyways, I am looking for a disc which is slightly more OS and especially has much more wind tolerance, with otherwise roughly similar attributes. In other words, moderately OS mid with awesome glide and powers down well.

I wonder how Lat 64 Mace / Lat 64 Medius / Innova King Kobra would handle the wind.

Roc is excellent in the wind, I know.
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby 7ontheline » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:42 pm

Karhumies wrote: I am looking for something with more glide and slightly less overstability than the Star Rancho Roc.
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MVP Ion - I have tried 174 Glow Ion as a putt-putter some time ago, and loved it until the weather conditions became wet and slippery (bad grip). Switched over to Magic. Never really tried it as an approach disc, but I guess it could work quite well.
I'd first suggest you try the Ion again. If the Ion has too much fade, do what I did and move to the Judge. If you're okay with the Ion's bead and could use a better grip and a touch more fade try a Wizard in the same plastic as your Magic, if you still want a little more fade than the Wizard, try Prodigy's 300s PA-2 or a Rhyno

Also, my power is starting to get 150 weight Jackal a bit flippy, but not consistently strong enough for throwing a 168 D-line FD Jackal predictably enough for the whole round. If you can suggest another fairway driver, probably around 160-165 weight range, that would be appreciated as well.
Maybe a 167-169 Neutron Volt?
The Volt is a step up in speed over the fairway Jackal so it should be a lot more overstable if 168 Jackal is on the edge of being too much
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Re: Slow control bag - need slightly OS approach disc/slow m

Postby Karhumies » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:53 am

Trying out this today:

strictly putts
170 "Soft" Magic

approaches
anny 174 "Soft" Magic
S/OS 174 E HPP Warlock <- Ion, if I can find it in a grippy enough plastic in the store. Extremely slippery but predictable disc and forest-proof plastic. Hunting down a Soft Wizard has been a difficult process, and replacing it would be difficult as well. Judge seems too similar to Warlock based on internet search to encourage switching.

mid
anny 173 Elite X Comet
S 174 BT Warship
S/OS 174 Opto Saint <- this should become replaced with "the mystery disc" I was looking for in this thread, e.g. 170 GL Mace. My local store does not carry DX San Marinos, only Star.

driver
all lines 158 Star Valkyrie <- could switch this later to a 150s Champ Valk when it begins to wear down more. not an immediate concern.
OS 174 Opto Saint <- headwind and hyzers
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