Need a Tunnel Mid

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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:43 am

Zombee has fade, and it's hard to finesse truly straight on medium-short tunnel shots due to it's wider rim, faster speed, and higher power requirement.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:12 pm

Safety against own anny resulting errors is the reason. The better you are and the wider the fairway is and no winds mean that it is overkill for some. Not everyone. For myself i am not in good enough shape to avoid second round blues and there extra hsshelps. Living by the sea makes winds change a lot within a day and hauling discs for every wind condition is not gonna help with getting tired. I did one half marathon a week for the last six weeks and it is not enough my core and arm hold me back and it turned out that my fingers suffer from overworking. It takes time to grt in good enough shape. And it does nothing to the winds so ymmv and i do not see disc provided extra safety as a crutch seeing as how my average scores improved.

A great point was made about medium length tunnels and how the Buzz is too much of a disc for those. Totally agree which is why i like to drive with even slower and later and less fading putters then. That would have no margin of error for my powerand control at 300' but are eminently usable at shorter ranges.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:52 pm

Yes, you are right...why weren't putters mentioned for tunnel approach shots? Hmmm...
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:16 am

I would hope that putter driving would be so obvious that it would not need to be mentioned the truth is that some junior medalists over here throw to 130' tops with putters and switch to mids on longer throws. That does not mean that it is not acceptable and require skills to get a laser out of a mid at 130' but still it sounds like asking too much of those discs. 130' can be a jump putt with a putter but it is way easier with a mid. For shits and giggles and on days when your throwing is so messed up that fh and bh 130' tunnels don't happen. I am that stiff and off at times. I have not played that much after ankle surgey last year and am not in top form of my life even though i am in better shape than in a long time and cycling top form of my life. That takes time and it is off of disc golf. Since it has benefits at work it is an easy decision.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby Mark Ellis » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:37 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:Cycling always seemed like more of a 'security blanket' thing to me. Want to only throw one mold for whatever reason(like the grip, don't want to learn a new disc, superstitious, etc). Why? Touring Pro's have do it because they're confined to one brand and their very limited molds, especially mids.

The Buzzz is now only one of many excellent mids, and I would place it no higher than middle of the pack at this stage.


Wow. Where do I start? I disagree with everything above.

First the Buzzz. The Buzzz is a great, great disc and a consistent product. I don't know how the flight of a Buzzz could be improved unless it was remote controlled. :D A Buzzz is a naturally straight flier, the most valuable of all flight paths. Anything that goes straight can be precisely shaped. A Buzzz fights winds, handles power and handles the flutter of a forehand shot, with a flat top and no bead making it fit in the hand superbly. The Buzz is so great a disc it pulls players off the Roc, which is itself a great disc.

I would like to show the doubters, first hand, how a Buzzz navigates tight tunnels.

Next to cycling. Cycling is inevitable for experienced players. Whether we are talking about your favorite putter, mid or driver, in whatever plastic, eventually it will break in. When it does do you take it out of the bag and retire it? Not me. As it breaks in it becomes more valuable, not less. I have learned and memorized that disc. It is beloved. I know how to shape lines with it. I know how it reacts in every wind and temperature and condition. Retire it? I wouldn't trade it for two brand new ones. If I lost it I would mourn it.

So what do you do when your favorite disc breaks in? Add a new one of the same thing, of course. Now you have started cycling. Every mold that I carry in my bag I have at least 2 of. One fresh, one broken in. My workhorse drivers, Nukes and Crushes I carry stacks of. Buzzzes? 4 at least, more if I need a risk disc. The more you rely on a mold, the better you learn it, the more that slight variations in stability become valuable. A mild headwind and you dial up. A fair tailwind and you dial down. Your knowledge of those variations increases your margin of error and makes the game easier.

Pros will throw whatever works. My sponsor has many mids in many plastics (Buzzz, Buzzz SS, Hornet, Meteor, Comet, Hawk, Wasp, Drone, Zone, Impact, Stratus, Storm, Glide, MRV, a few more they make for DGA and I'm probably forgetting some). Somehow I don't feel limited in choices. I keep Wasps and Zones in my tournament box but only pull them out in very strong winds. Why? Because the Buzzz works so well. Like fine wine it gets better with age.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:25 am

Headgame must not be underestimated and most excess strokes should come from mental errors because other errors are easier to learn away from. Cyclers might have the most use out of familiarity with discs these days when almost any slight variation in flight paths are available out of the box. Feldy held clinic two that concerns how you play events and Climo had said to him that he concentrated for five minutes in the event. Dave was tired after concentrating too long. Having a disc that you trust to do just what you need to a degree without forcing it makes your form more accurate and consistent when you are not trying to throw too hard and manipulate many angles=your skill requirements are lower which has direct bearing on the ease of throwing both mentally and physically. I thibk i found the best driving putter out there out of the box that is regularly available yesterday. Dynamic Discs Soft Warden. I'll write a review of it elsewhere. But using it and the demands placed on mids become fewer and less conflicting thus you could pick one that feels the best and you trust the most so that you don't need to fret about the equipment and just throw it.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:07 am

Mark Ellis wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:Cycling always seemed like more of a 'security blanket' thing to me. Want to only throw one mold for whatever reason(like the grip, don't want to learn a new disc, superstitious, etc). Why? Touring Pro's have do it because they're confined to one brand and their very limited molds, especially mids.

The Buzzz is now only one of many excellent mids, and I would place it no higher than middle of the pack at this stage.


Wow. Where do I start? I disagree with everything above.

First the Buzzz. The Buzzz is a great, great disc and a consistent product. I don't know how the flight of a Buzzz could be improved unless it was remote controlled. :D A Buzzz is a naturally straight flier, the most valuable of all flight paths. Anything that goes straight can be precisely shaped. A Buzzz fights winds, handles power and handles the flutter of a forehand shot, with a flat top and no bead making it fit in the hand superbly. The Buzz is so great a disc it pulls players off the Roc, which is itself a great disc.

I would like to show the doubters, first hand, how a Buzzz navigates tight tunnels.

Next to cycling. Cycling is inevitable for experienced players. Whether we are talking about your favorite putter, mid or driver, in whatever plastic, eventually it will break in. When it does do you take it out of the bag and retire it? Not me. As it breaks in it becomes more valuable, not less. I have learned and memorized that disc. It is beloved. I know how to shape lines with it. I know how it reacts in every wind and temperature and condition. Retire it? I wouldn't trade it for two brand new ones. If I lost it I would mourn it.

So what do you do when your favorite disc breaks in? Add a new one of the same thing, of course. Now you have started cycling. Every mold that I carry in my bag I have at least 2 of. One fresh, one broken in. My workhorse drivers, Nukes and Crushes I carry stacks of. Buzzzes? 4 at least, more if I need a risk disc. The more you rely on a mold, the better you learn it, the more that slight variations in stability become valuable. A mild headwind and you dial up. A fair tailwind and you dial down. Your knowledge of those variations increases your margin of error and makes the game easier.

Pros will throw whatever works. My sponsor has many mids in many plastics (Buzzz, Buzzz SS, Hornet, Meteor, Comet, Hawk, Wasp, Drone, Zone, Impact, Stratus, Storm, Glide, MRV, a few more they make for DGA and I'm probably forgetting some). Somehow I don't feel limited in choices. I keep Wasps and Zones in my tournament box but only pull them out in very strong winds. Why? Because the Buzzz works so well. Like fine wine it gets better with age.


How many other brand midrange discs have you tried, Mark? There are a ton out there now, many of which are the equal of a Buzzz, if not better. This is fact.

As for premium plastic midrange discs breaking in, you were referencing various Z Buzzz's. Unless smacking a lot of trees on power throws, I see it taking a heckuva long time for a Z Buzzz to break in, to the point of it's flight/stability changing. Discraft makes the same clame, BTW.

And I still prefer to carry various molds(stable, US, OS) rather than cycling. It's a matter of preference, and offers an immediate advantage over waiting on discs to progress in stages of wear to the point of covering the stability spectrum and shots.

Also, very few of us have the luxury of cherry picking Buzzz's, as you can. Especially with most orders being done from online stores. A domey Buzzz alone can put a monkey wrench in "cycling". What do you do then, junk it?
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JHern » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:08 pm

The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and finish straight if you throw it flat and pure, like Mark Ellis was saying.

The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and fade at the end if you throw slightly nose up.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:30 pm

So will at least a half dozen other midrange models, and without the need to cycle OR finesse them into dead straight. QMS, Element, Fuse, Mako/Mako 3, Tangent, Buzzz SS, M4, etc.

Buzzz...great disc, not the greatest thing since electricity. :roll:
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:40 am

It always amuses me that people like me that are not super into cycling discs claiming that getting a new one to fit a role is great often fail to notice that Buzzes in different plastics are more versatile out of the box than probably any other mold. Glo z or beefy ti for os z for moderately os domey esp, ss or x for mild hyzer flips to straight or mildly us and the reportedly quickly breakng in d for flippy. As if the Buzz would not move a lot right when new even in z annied past say 7 degrees of anny with power to make it go 300' if flat or about 400' with drivers. Bob is your uncle. Sorry bent the Buzz fulfilled your requirements without the needbto cycle them too. Next stop the shop where they sell Buzzes. How else may we help you :lol:

Which other mold comes in so many different stabilities that they cover all the midrange lines released flat at least when given over 360-370' driver power? With great variations in tackiness for all round the year use in all kinds of weather condition. Tasty. Sure there are different great mids some of which fly like one of the Buzzes and some not. Some are shorter others longer glides vary etc. So what. The Buzz is not for everyone given the rest of the bag but it can cover a widrr spectrum of mid flights than most if not every other mold with new examples. Beat that.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:42 am

Don't understand this "need" to hold the Buzzz up above all other midrange discs. That might have been valid 10 years ago, but it's an absurd argument now. Adios!
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:27 pm

JR wrote:It always amuses me that people like me that are not super into cycling discs claiming that getting a new one to fit a role is great often fail to notice that Buzzes in different plastics are more versatile out of the box than probably any other mold. Glo z or beefy ti for os z for moderately os domey esp, ss or x for mild hyzer flips to straight or mildly us and the reportedly quickly breakng in d for flippy. As if the Buzz would not move a lot right when new even in z annied past say 7 degrees of anny with power to make it go 300' if flat or about 400' with drivers. Bob is your uncle. Sorry bent the Buzz fulfilled your requirements without the needbto cycle them too. Next stop the shop where they sell Buzzes. How else may we help you :lol:

Which other mold comes in so many different stabilities that they cover all the midrange lines released flat at least when given over 360-370' driver power? With great variations in tackiness for all round the year use in all kinds of weather condition. Tasty. Sure there are different great mids some of which fly like one of the Buzzes and some not. Some are shorter others longer glides vary etc. So what. The Buzz is not for everyone given the rest of the bag but it can cover a widrr spectrum of mid flights than most if not every other mold with new examples. Beat that.


"...fail to notice that Buzzes in different plastics are more versatile out of the box than probably any other mold."

You mean like the many variations of the Roc? Or maybe the Fuse, which comes in GL, Opto, RGL, and Test Material? How about the Truth, which comes in Classic, Lucid, Fusion, and BioFusion? All different plastics in differing stabilities. To name a few...

Where's the mystery?
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:14 pm

The need as you call it is stikcing to the facts and reality and the Buzz stands or falls based on the merits of it and the competition so let the best disc win.

The mystery so far for me is why you cannot get your facts straight. I bid you extremely good luck in the winds with your collection of Fuses seeing as they have nothing that has enough HSS so your comparison accuracy is oranges to apples. Not very factual is it? Another demerit for the Fuse is that because of the distinct lack of HSS it is not at all forgiving of user error in fact it is one of the most punishing discs after the Comet. So a torpedoed dinghy holds more water than that argument.

The Truth i have not tried but it lacks a tacky version but i like the big brother of the truth the lucid Suspect which is beefy in the Glo Z beefy Ti Buzz fashion and is a perfectly viable headwind complement to the Fuse and i suspect the Truth, Rocs certainly and many other straight mids. Adn there are other good beefier mids aplenty to use instead of the beefy Buzzes, Suspect, Wasp, Sentinel, Gator, Drone for example. Note that i have no problem recommending the usage of different molds in mid roles and that is exactly what i do except on the days and the courses that three different molds give better results.

Rocs can have wind resistance for clean releasing torque machines even in normal DX but those are rare players and there still won't be harder finishes even for them so no OS version exists and for most of us from hearsay the rare USDGC fundraisers have OS variants among them. How does that help the regular Joe when the special versions are not available? Otherwise different new Rocs can be had in different stabilities to cover the whole spectrum just flying shorter and now more overlapping with modern straight putters more than the longer Buzz. So that is your best comparison so far even though it stll leaves things to be desired. Not to mention those that don't have long enough fingers that won't scrape or catch the bead... Any other suggestions? But maybe i should try a Truth as well thanks for the reminder. I had thought of trying one out.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:05 pm

I believe I have my facts straight. You were commenting on how the Buzzz offered in different plastics makes it so "versatile". The same is true of the discs I listed. That's why I listed them as examples. And there are many more. The fact that one or another isn't identical to a Buzzz is beside the point. And now you're dissecting the Roc vs Fuse vs Truth, which is really quite pointless. I've never relied on a Fuse into a headwind, BTW. That's what I have a OS midrange in the bag for. I don't even throw the Fuse, although I have in the past.

This is not arguing per se, it's questioning Mark Ellis(and now yours it seems) claims that nothing can do it as well as a Buzzz....when he only throws Discraft! That's an immediate disqualifier, IMO.

Let's get real. I like the Buzzz, have thrown the X, ESP, ESP FLX, and Z, although I don't currently have a Buzzz in my bag. Shame on me! :shock: '

Why do you and others feel the need to prove that the Buzzz is the greatest midrange in existence, and nothing else comes close? Do you actually believe all the hype? If that's true, what are all these other neutral/straight midrange molds from several other mfgrs all about? And why do they sell very well? Kind of silly isn't it?

Another very good midrange, the MD2, is from Finland...your location. Are you going to proceed to tell me how the MD2 is inferior to a Buzzz too?
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:18 am

It sems that you are not versed in the scientific process seeing as you claim that popularity is a measure of how a disc or a mold behaves. Even that fallacy supports the superiority of the Buzz over many note not necessarily all the molds. Why? Is the Buzz not the best selling disc for years in a row? A scientist would know that is not valid proof of the real quality of the disc that does not need repeating. But a big but. You are too eager to replace the Buzz with two or more molds if you were to debate the merits of a mold you should compare it to one mold not two. Name any one mold and it is likely to get a superior mix of two or more molds of the same roles mentioned that together give better results. Not an apples to oranges comparison so not real. Remember my last post where i preferred two to three molds for mid duty?

Do not sell Mark out short. Or me for that matter. Unlike him i am notvsponsored and am a mixed bag thrower. And while Mark uses DC exclusively it does not mean any changes to the flight characteristics of the Buzz.

You were selling me short too in claiming thatci had a need to prove that the Buzz is superior. That is inaccurate and the proof is in my previous post so you should reread the part about the merits of the disc and the competition determining which is the best disc. Had you accepted that your claims should have been different. You further devalue my thinking by claiming i believe hype. Is it really so that you do not understand that my observations are my own based on the flights of different Buzzes and most of the competition? Bah but do your misconceptions really make me that dumb? Was Shakespeare wrong to ridicule a fictionary king when he described the king getting his feet wet after commanding tve tide to not rise because he was the king of England? Am i really that stupid in your opinion. Why? Where is the proof?

Fair enough about bringing other competiton for proof. MD2 comes from Innova. There are no really understable versions available when new like the Buzz. The difference is that there are no really tacky MD2s and the differences between the types of MD2s are way larger than with Buzzes. No mildly os MD2out of the box i am afraid. So yes if you use th MD2 you will need complementary discs more than you would do with the Buzz or manipulate the flight more meaning larger chances of error in shot planning. I use this route with the Buzz and pay because manipulation is not as effective as having slightly differing discs. Because i minimize the mass i am hauling around. Because i am not in good enough shape. Ymmv. Domey MD2s are slghtly us and flat ones are os at 200' and moderately os at 300' where is the straight at 300' MD2? If a new d MD2 pulls it of great. No experience with them. The the MD2 would tie the Buzz if there would be a tacky version. Imo the MD2 is better than the Roc.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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