The Myth of Disc Pivot

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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby aDave » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:49 pm

Since this thread seems pretty active and it's tangentially ( lol, puns ) related to the discussion, I'll leave this here...

I've been rebuilding my drive this winter and have had a thought that I need you guys to give me feedback on:
I started thinking about the reach back and pull into the power pocket separately from torso rotation and have come to a realization about timing ( I think ).
Stand up straight and hold a disc out in front of you and move the disc into the power pocket without torso rotation. Now you are in the right pec position or thereabouts.
Now the fun part is to go into the whip, again without torso rotation. I've found that, for me the disc "bounces" out of the right pec at about 120 degrees from my chest.
All I have to do is to is perform that 30 degree twist at the right time to keep the disc following a straight line from the beginning of the reach back to the rip.
I've been doing this out in the field and it feels right, but isn't all there yet.

Am I nuts?
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:05 pm

That is the timing i have been using with ball of the foot pivoting for control drives. Due to an injured right ankle. I should test heel pivots if i have healed enough. A busted knee has stopped attempts at bracing more so distance drives have the or about the same timing although there could be a lot more late acceleration available from really jamming the heel into a single place. Allowing a massively quick hip twist. Something that does not concern my semi jammed up lower back that is over the worst part of an injury there too. Meh. Injuries here injuries there and everywhere :roll:
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby aDave » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 pm

Nope I I'm not nuts.
in the last two days I've been overthrowing ~310 foot wooded tunnels with mid weight esp comets on low hyzer lines. I hit at least 300 today with a 150 gram ruby ! Wtf? It's a real jump in skill for me. When the timing is right, I don't miss a gap and the disc just hangs in the air like it doesn't want to stop. I've been working on this for years and this is the first real breakthrough since I hit 300 for the first time.
Everything I read here is true it just took me reframing it in a way that my body could feel. Damn I love this game. I can't wait for the next breakthrough.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:43 am

You should test what you can get with faster discs on an open field. For long term growth note that things change when you move quicker. Also bracing should increase d potential but it needs a quicker or earlier arm acceleration so that you can get to the right pec position. So form and timing need to be checked at least annually. Before the season is a good idea so that you have time to train the changes and get to solidify them during the season.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby aDave » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:17 am

Thanks jr. I've noticed more force on the pant leg as a result, and the hardest part of it has been speeding up the pull exactly like you said. I'm gonna head out to a field next week. Might be time to add something faster than the orc to the bag.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby itlnstln » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:43 am

DiscJay wrote:So how far into the power pocket is too far? What is the sweet spot before you start getting into diminishing returns or negatively affecting the throw? I am trying to figure out where that point is. I suppose it will be different for different people depending on arm length and stuff. What are everyone's thoughts?


I think if you get your elbow out in front properly, getting the disc into the power pocket will take care of itself. I don't think you want to actively place the disc into the power pocket as you might end up losing the springing action in the wrist that you're looking for. That said, I basically get the disc to the right pec position and the disc is touching the inside of my forearm in the power pocket. I don't think you can get much farther than that. If I were to try to do anything else, it would feel forced and take away from the shot.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby DiscJay » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:14 am

I hear ya itlnstln, that is about where I get into the power pocket too. I actually feel a bit of a bounce off my forearm on some of my bigger throws. I wondered if even though that(the bounce off the forearm) happens on some of my bigger throws it wasn't robbing me in some way of distance. I agree that you can't get much farther into the pocket than that though, lol.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby Stringbean » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:53 am

For awhile, I misunderstood what was meant by getting the elbow out front. I thought that meant out front towards the target, not away from your body. When I get the disc to my right pec with my bicep directly in front of it, I can do just about everything else wrong and still throw 350 feet.

The disc never comes close to touching my forearm. I broke my right wrist when I was 15 and have never had the same flexibility. I can't even force it to bend far enough to touch my forearm.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby itlnstln » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:51 pm

Stringbean wrote:For awhile, I misunderstood what was meant by getting the elbow out front. I thought that meant out front towards the target, not away from your body. When I get the disc to my right pec with my bicep directly in front of it, I can do just about everything else wrong and still throw 350 feet.

The disc never comes close to touching my forearm. I broke my right wrist when I was 15 and have never had the same flexibility. I can't even force it to bend far enough to touch my forearm.


Hmm... I get my elbow out towards the target. In any case, it's about creating leverage, and there are myriad ways to do that. Feldberg doesn't really get the elbow out towards the target as much as some others but he does just fine.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby aDave » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:00 pm

Update. JR suggested that I go out in the field and see what the new form does so I did.
Did some field work this afternoon. The best drive I measured was 420 foot with a 170 pearly champ orc on a hyzer flip. It flipped flat while rising, turned right and glided for a bit and faded gently. Best drive I've ever thrown. Comets were in the 350 range on high hyzer flips. Got 1 Yeti drive out to 320 and was bombing the ruby lol. The rest were in between.
Gstar teebird tosses were flat lazers, no turn and medium fade out to about 350.
I feel like I've got another 50 feet in there. But whenever I really go for it, I get OAT with a vengeance. I don't know why. Any ideas?
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby DiscJay » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:24 am

aDave wrote:Update. JR suggested that I go out in the field and see what the new form does so I did.
Did some field work this afternoon. The best drive I measured was 420 foot with a 170 pearly champ orc on a hyzer flip. It flipped flat while rising, turned right and glided for a bit and faded gently. Best drive I've ever thrown. Comets were in the 350 range on high hyzer flips. Got 1 Yeti drive out to 320 and was bombing the ruby lol. The rest were in between.
Gstar teebird tosses were flat lazers, no turn and medium fade out to about 350.
I feel like I've got another 50 feet in there. But whenever I really go for it, I get OAT with a vengeance. I don't know why. Any ideas?


aDave,

I notice that when I really get on a drive that I will roll my wrist trying to put more on it. Maybe try not to work the wrist into the power drives so much and let the wrist opening happen more on its own. That's what works for me.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:43 pm

Congratulations on the progress so far! That can raise you up a division in competition. Honestly on many courses those distances will not give an advantage to anyone but the longest bombers and then only if the risks are not too high for them.

The reasons to OAT are many and a video is the best way to determine what is what. EWrist rolls might be curable with adding a stiffer wrist. Try to get 10' extra at first not 50'. When pushing for improvements it is normal that you may get a couple of tosses ok in a thousand ripping beyond your controllable level vs half right at a few feet beyond your controllable level. Pushing it kills consistency.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby aDave » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:09 pm

I'll try to get some video this weekend. Thanks for the input.
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby rhatton2 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:00 am

Old thread bump - this has been discussed a lot over on DGCR recently.

I've stolen Blakes Rail line and added a disc with approximate hand and thumb positions through the rail, then put it alongside a picture HUB (heavydisblogspot Jason) made of Mike C's overhead.

Seeing a real disc with the wrist and thumb placement really helps me to visulaise the power of this motion with the incredible speed that must be generated in the "pivot" (for want of a better word) and what looks almost like an arc on top of an arc as the thumb pushes and the disc breaks from the hand.

I wish we had some higher frame rate top down camera work of people like Mike's, Dan's and Nate Doss, barry Schultz's form to see the motions clearly through the 7 - 9 area on the picture, maybe You guys JR might get on to that?

Image
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Re: The Myth of Disc Pivot

Postby JR » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:46 pm

Actually Bradley Walker here described that arc on top of an arc on top of another thingy years ago. One arc comes from the heel pivot, hips twist another, shoulders too, elbow, wrist and disc pivot. It is the timing and rail vs straight line pull that determines if there is an arc or not from the heel to the elbow straightening. It is possible to sync the body parts for a straight line pull so that only the latter part of the elbow extension moves the disc to the left of the line still ending up on a parallel line. Or the rail is possible too.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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