My bag has some gaps i need to fill....

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Postby jgarcia9102 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:01 am

Thats where ive been getting my ratings from, and all of them are very similar. the problem is, i know i will be throwing Z plastics, and not all ratings reflect them being more overstable, and some do. i do use it as a general guide, but the differences in each of these discs is .5 in fade. now im sure thats the case, but i am trying to figure out how the flight path is different, and thats not somehting you can really get from ratings.

unfortunatly i have never thrown an orc or a monster. like i mentioned before, i have stayed away from many of the newer faster drivers since i began playing. i started out with T birds, XL, TL, Eagle etc...
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:07 am

None of your questions are stupid; I've asked worse.

The tracker is straight (stable). It's been awhile since I've thrown an xl, but it would fill the same spot in your bag, still worth a try in my opinion to see which you like better.

About the avengers, the z avenger is much more overstable than x version; mine is similar to my old z predator (your firebird). The x avenger is not as overstable as the z and goes further while still being overstable. I carry them both due to their differences. I would recommend a max weight x avenger.

Also been awhile since I've thrown a crush, but my z avenger does remind me of it. I wish I could give you more info here, but I didn't throw the crush long enough to be of much help. It was too overstable for me at the time.

I am also a buzz thrower (throw a midnight and a pro D), and the players I meet all say I need to be carrying a wasp as well. So if you throw a buzz, stick with the mold and go wasp instead of gator though I like the gator too.
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Postby Weebl » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:51 am

Just because I throw stingrays doesnt mean a cobra will feel more normal than a MRV. The wasp is a buzzz with a bead (or the buzzz is a wasp without a bead...) so it will still feel different in the hand. I'm not trying to persued your disc selection, just pointing out keep/use the molds you enjoy, no need to switch molds for the sole purpose of getting a step-brother for your Buzzz.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:15 am

Re-read my post: it says I've been advised to do so. My wasp hasn't even arrived in the mail. But, many quality players do believe that keeping the number of molds to a minimum is a good thing.

Every time I throw my glide, I am told I should have a beat up pro D buzz instead. You know what? If a better player gives me some advice, I am apt to try it out.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:40 am

I understand the Same Mold Idea, but the wasp was uncomfortable in my hand. I took it out of my bag for a reason. the bead on the bottom was sharp, and uncofortable (if anyone has thrown a Champ Cobra you will know whatt i mean).


now im really confused about the crush and the avenger. a few have now said that the Z crush is less stable than theZ Avenger, but the Avenger is better for smaller arms somehow.

Im trying to stay away from Viper style discs that just turn out of your hand, but i do need it stable enough for winds and S turns (when i finally learn how to throw anny consistently, but thats a different topic all together). for reference, my firebird is about as broken in as a champion gets, and it dosent S turn for me. It comes out of Anny and knives at the ground. it has fairly good glide when i throw it flat, but i have to aim 50' to the right to compensate for the low speed turn. So if the Zcrush/Avenger will act lke my firebird, i need to try out something different. i suppose i should just spend the 22$ and get one of each.
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Postby Aaron_D » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:33 pm

if youre having trouble throwing anhyzer and have to aim 50' to the right it sounds like you might not have a snappy enough throw, or maybe you are underpowering the discs in general. have you tried discs that dont require a monster arm? ....teebird, xl, gazelle, leopard?
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Postby Aaron_D » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:57 pm

nevermind...jus read the 1st page...

i have a z xl in 171 and 174 and it was the first disc i fell in love with. it flew straight first throw and you are so right about 90% bullet straight. the problem arose when i started trying to throw past 350. in order to throw the disc that far you have to have some power. good form is great and all, but when the target is simply too far for a nice smooth controlled straight shot you HAVE to realy rip it, and if you rip the z xl...it will go flippy nippy on you faster than a 150g dx beast...and once it flips it is NOT coming back. for me at least i had to experiment with throwing S curves to break the 350-380 plateau. there is a HUGE difference between 330' and 380'...you have to balance the snap and the power to get optimal distance from any disc, but with the z xl i find i can only get about 350 consistantly and that is throwing dead flat (or even with a slight SLIGHT hyzer) and using snap to get it to just BARELY turn over to ahnny in order to lead the disc on a nose-down trajectory almost like it is a beat Roc or something...sorry to ramble, but once i read the 1st page i had to get my 2 cents in since i was once a lover of the z xl...still am, it pretty much beats out my dx teebirds for straight mid ceiling shots less than 360ish. you have to learn to love the S! it was the only way i could break 400' (im stuck at just over 400' now with what is essentially no accuracy since im basically doing a 360 degree turn after the throw.

bottom line: xl is a great disc, but if you are looking for distance + a headwind driver, the firebird is about as good as it gets, but you need a rocket to get it to fly straight. I might recommend a tsunami, crush or stick with the dx teebird and learn to control the S curve. Most new discs seem to want to S when thrown flat with a good amount of power and nice snap anyway...orc / wraith / valk / beast / tsunami.

i went through a phase where distance was all that mattered and i didnt care at all about accuracy...probably not the most productive way to learn the sport, but it did teach me some things about discs that simply cant handle the POWA!!! (rocs/ xl / beasts lighter than low 160s...damn im rambling....sorry fellas.

8) 8)
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:39 pm

Well im not sure if you read it, but i am fairly new to backhand drives. i only started switching over last fall from FH, and played only a handfull of times over the winter, so this is really my first season BH. I can throw a forearm S Curve, but BH I tend to griplock when i go for a low anny drive. well, different topic, different time. im working on it.

unfortunatly im still trying to break the 300' drives that at this point are only on ocasion. I have an arm, i know i do, its just controlling it that is the problem for me. ive gotten so used to going slow and steady, rather than cranking up my shots and risking being very inacurate. the power is there, but power AND consistency is what im lacking. right now its just one or the other.

i can handle faster drivers, but not consistently with every throw, so i stick to the slower drivers that i know i can throw how i want.

with that said, i still have no idea whether to go with the Z Crush or the Z Avenger. ill have a Viking in my bag all next week, so ill give that a try, but i still think one of those would be a more appropriate disc.
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Postby garublador » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:50 pm

jgarcia9102 wrote:now im really confused about the crush and the avenger. a few have now said that the Z crush is less stable than theZ Avenger, but the Avenger is better for smaller arms somehow.


I'd only say that the X Avenger is better for smaller arms. If you get a Z Avenger, I'd expect it to act kind of like your Firebird. I throw 350' and I've been using an X Avenger since they came out. I hit lots of stuff and the X isn't anywhere near being too understable. It lost it's overstable bite fairly quickly, but after that it hasn't changed much at all. I throw it with a hyzer to get a really straight throw with a fairly strong fade at the end. I have to throw the Z Avenger with an anhyzer to get it to go anywhere, so there is a very noticable difference for me.

Compareing the broken in X Avenger to the Champ Viking, I'd say the X Avenger is a bit more overstable at both high and low speeds, but still a hyzer-flip disc. I trust it more into a headwind and I'm confident it will come back at the end even if I turn it over a bit too much (which doesn't happen often). The Champ Viking is a great stright driver, but I had trouble getting it to hold a hyzer. There was always the chance it would turn over and stay that way. I did like the fade, though. I still think it's a great disc.
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Postby jiwaburst » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:54 pm

It does get funny sometimes with us describing discs to eachother and how they fly, while everyone has different throws and techniques.

For me the X Avenger, after breaking in, is dead straight. I can make it go left or right if I throw it that way, but for a straight throw it just finishes straight. I also throw about 350. It's a great disc for sure, and one that can be thrown 260 with the same flight path as when it is thrown 350, but to fade left for me reliably, there are about 15 other discs I'd rather use in that spot.

But people are different. I was playing doubles with a small 55 year-old guy who throws nothing but a Viper RHBH off the tee. You'd never know it was a Viper to see him throw it though, for him it traveled like a faster roc.

I still think a Star TeeBird is fantastic for this role.

But I was thinking, in order to get a max weight Champ Eagle or Champ TB to show turn under 300 feet, you'd have to release it that way (with anhyzer/off axis torque). It's just hard for me to imagine that thrown slight hyzer and straight, those discs are turning by themsleves at that distance.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:21 pm

jiwaburst wrote:But I was thinking, in order to get a max weight Champ Eagle or Champ TB to show turn under 300 feet, you'd have to release it that way (with anhyzer/off axis torque). It's just hard for me to imagine that thrown slight hyzer and straight, those discs are turning by themsleves at that distance.


well when i drive, my most consistant form is flat with a lot of snap to keep my mids from flipping. i can throw hyzer flip style, but for me, it just seems like one more factor to mess up on. this is why i have trouble with my starfire. its tricky for me to find that perfect angle and do it consistantly. when i said the TB had slight S turn, it was when i threw it flat. the ZXL dosent have that problem for me, or at least it is more forgiving. i hate saying that, because i know the TB is known as the forgiving predictible disc, but something about my form makes it not so. something about my form affected the TB's, and not the XL's.

maybey i could give them a try again. i AM in the market for new discs.....


so heres the current options:

Eagle
Avenger
Crush
Tsunami
Viking

and the goal is a disc that will fly straight flat and level out of the hand into a mild-med wind, and stability between XL and Firebird, for hyzers, S turns, and drives that end left..

i understand that my form needs work, and i need to develop more power, and i am working on these. The thing is, i cant keep this gap in my bag untill i get a bigger arm, i need something that will work now. maybey when i get that extra power this disc will become my main straight driver, who knows.

thanks for all the help here guys. a lot of it may be off topic, but it is helping me.
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