When should a Super Fast Driver be the Disc of Choice?

Disc Golf Talk

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Postby roadkill » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:15 am

It may be a difference in our throwing styles.

The reason I can't throw a hyzer shot as far as a straight shot (with the same disc) is because there is very little glide on the hyzer and the disc stops flying (and starts dumping) earlier. It's the same reason you can't throw a knife hyzer as far as a penetrating long hyzer.

By throwing a more stable disc the flying portion of flight ceases much earlier.

The more I think about it I may throw something like a pro orc farther on a hyzer line than a cyclone because a pro orc is much closer in (in)stability as the cyclone but faster. However it is rare today to find a fast, high tech disc that is flippy (pro orc is the only one that comes to mind) unless you really beat the crap out of it for a long time.
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:02 am

i don't believe that the throwing style makes a difference in this case. certain disc characteristics contribute towards certain flight paths.

because a hyzer inherently has less glide, discs that penetrate faster generally will cover more ground than discs that are slow. the exception are discs that are overstable to the point where they change angle during the fade portion and bank towards a steeper angle as they fade and drop out of the air faster (e.g. firebird, flick, banshee, viper, etc.).

for discs like a wraith, SL, beast (old mold), viking, crush, flash, orion ls, orion lf, starfire-x, dx/pro orc, etc., they are overstable enough to hold the angle through the fade portion, but not overstable enough to bank to a steeper angle.

a good majority of these discs have much better glide characteristics at low speeds (glide = low speed lift = the ability for the disc to stay in the air as it slows down). this lift compensates for the stability differential as the majority of the slower discs lose out to gravity at low speeds and simply cannot carry as far on the same line. while they can carry far, they require much greater power on the throw to carry the same, which is the reason a cyclone or gazelle requires a 30'+ apex to carry 400+, whereas many of those discs can do it at a 15' or lower apex.

due to their gyroscopic nature in conjunction with the glide characteristics, it is fairly easy to make a disc such as a wraith or an sl carry 70'+ during the fade portion of their flight. with this in mind, for someone who throws 360' max, 340' is a feasible distance to cover with a disc like a pro wraith on a pure hyzer, but a clone on a similar line is likely to top out at ~300', regardless of their throwing style.
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Postby roadkill » Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:57 am

It looks like we're going to disagree on this point.

I think my point is not neccessarily fast vs. slow but stable vs unstable.

The reason I got off point a little is when I think fast, I automaticly think stable to overstable as the new generation of superfast drivers are what I would deem as overstable.

With speed being equal I will typically throw an understable disc farther on a hyzer line than a stable or overstable disc on the same line. The greater stability of the disc requires more speed and spin to continue flying vs a less stable disc. A wraith will fall out of the air and dive at the ground much faster for me than a pro orc when thrown on a hyzer line.

On a side note the champ viking I have is way overstable. I don't know if it is an anomaly or what but it is similar in stability to my Flick and my quarter k . My champ viking is way more overstable than any brand new champ orc I've ever thrown.
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Postby twmccoy » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:48 pm

I never thought the champ viking was very straight either. Every one I threw wanted to fade hard. My favorite straight flying discs are old mold beasts and pro starfires.
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Postby NCSUphenom » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:00 pm

I used to throw a little extra disc than i needed to. I still do, but not as much as I used to. The problem with doing it is that it's harder to consistently land closer to the pin. When you switch to midranges and putters for 250 and in, a slight bad throw generally turns out better.

The encouraging thing about being able to throw long discs on short holes is that you have a great feel for the game. So if you ever need a driver to shape a short hole, you should be pretty confident
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:43 pm

i agree that at the same speed, understable discs go farther than overstable discs on a hyzer line.

what i am saying is that a disc that is fast and stable or pro stable will carry farther than a slow understable disc on the said hyzer line since it will penetrate a lot more and be less prone to gravity.

i am careful at when i use the term overstable. to me, a disc doesn't qualify as overstable unless it increases its bank towards vertical during the fade portion of the flight. discs like a wraith, starfire-l, crush, etc. i consider to be pro stable since during their fade portion they hold a pretty constant angle and are also discs that have high speed characteristics that are wholly dependent upon the power level they are thrown with. these are to be kept separate from "true stable" drivers, that are high speed stable at any speed (e.g. teebird, starfire-x, etc.). true stable discs generally behave more like overstable discs in their bite, but generally do not bite until very late in their flight. these discs will penetrate less on a hyzer line than a pro stable driver.

all discs with a concave rim and rim width > 1.9cm will be gyroscopic overstable (read as: nearly every driver made since 2001 will be gyroscopic overstable). similarly, all large diameter discs will be gyroscopic overstable compared to smaller discs.
these characteristics do not strictly qualify the discs as overstable.

basically, i've done distance trials with this and the outcome has always been that fast understable drivers fly the farthest on this line followed by fast pro stable drivers, fast true stable drivers, slow understable drivers, fast overstable drivers, slow true stable drivers, and slow overstable drivers pulling up the rear (slow pro stable drivers don't really exist outside of the now discontinued x2 in elite pro/x plastic).

as for the champ viking, it had 2 strikes against it from the get go.
1) i believe this would have been the best selling discs of this millennium IF it had been released within 8 months of the valkyrie (how many times have you heard "i wish the valk was just a little more stable"?). releasing the disc after the beast and close in timeframe to the orc spelled doom as you cannot release a disc that is admittedly shorter than the longest flyers on the market and expect it to sell well.

2) the champ viking was one of the least consistent discs of all time in its early runs. they ranged from roller flippy to monster overstable.
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Postby Solty » Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:24 pm

Couple local casual players......use vikings for hard turns to the left........somewhere i usually throw a firebird...
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Postby Weebl » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:29 pm

roadkill wrote:
="WeeblWhat would you call a 2 on a par 5?...

Well a 2 on a par 5 would be a double eagle.

However, while I've never played the hole it seems by your description it could just as easily be a par 4. The hole is what, 550' as the crow flies? Unless the fairway is super narrow I'd probably call it a par 4.

At the pro worlds last year there was a hole that went about 320 then hard dogleg left (with mando) through very dense woods for another 380 (700 ' of hole and absolutely no direct route whatsoever) and it was a par 4 (I had a drop in 3 in practice).

Very narrow fairway, like I said 10' wide and if your off to tthe left you're 60' down in a basin, or if your lucky* on the hillside perched on a tree trunk. Right side has some leeway in the first half of the hole, but the second half to the right is blackberry bushes between the creek and the path. This course is through olf growth Monterey Pine forest. Every friday me and about 7-11 others play doubles there, and I've seen a birdie on it twice in the 20 rounds I've played there(doubles...). One of these guys have a 1000 player rating too, while 3 others are in the high 900s.

Anyways, when going for a long hyzer route I find I can get an understable disc to skip much later than say a firebird. I recently found out the joys of flippy hyzer lines, I can't wait for that sun to come out for harder ground to get big skips off of... I may be cursing myself though for rollaways, heh.
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