Grip Questions

[daniebl2]

I've been throwing with the fork grip for about 1.5 years now....I just never noticed that the disc pivot wasn't clean. I mean I've had people comment that I have little bit of disc flutter but I was always associating it with off-axis torque.

I have another question with regards to the Rip point. I've just noticed that I can't maintain the same wrist down orientation from the curled position through to fully opened. I can maintain the same orientation upto the point where the wrist is in-line with the forearm....after that...opening the wrist any further will cause the outer edge of the disc to raise. I was always under the impression that the wrist should open up....is this correct?

[JR]

Yeah, I have a few calluses. find that climo video. that's where I learned this grip and at first I got a LOT of turnovers because I wasn't used to this much nose down and I had to reposition my to stop from it rolling. now I have a lot more control on it if I keep my wrist locked down.

When you say stop do you mean the point where you stop the wrist motion to handshaking position? Did you stop earlier to make the annies go away?

My trouble is that I can't keep my wrist down to the rip point even though I can have the disc way more down than in line with the forearm initially. I got so mad about this because I realized It's robbing distance for me. I thought that since I can't anyway keep my wrist down I might as well raise my arm speed by keeping the disc in line with my forearm close to the rip keeping the muscles looser and in the end try to force the wrist down. At best I got flat releases and too often slight nose up. Some of the problems were due to the timing of the forcing of the wrist down near the rip. I'm not amused. So I don't have troubles with a lot of nose down because I can't make that happen. I am weight forward and mostly don't raise the hand elevation through the throw. It's all in the wrist in my case.

I can't figure out how to keep the wrist down. It's nasty that even with the less straining disc in line with the forearm the wrist tends to rise before the rip. That's the biggest hindrance to trying to learn to snap with hard throws. And it is by itself a definite distance robber. Meh.

[JR]

Pushing down with the thumb and directed pressure twards the outer rim causes the wrist to open up and helps maintain a wrist down orientation during the pivot.

Also,
I noticed today that my lock point does not come off clean with the standard fork grip.....my middle finger seems to catch. I think I've found a possible solution. If I remove the pinky finger and double up ring finger and middle finger they seem to come off together and clean. I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but I'm hopefull.

I'm desperate to try to get my wrist down so I've gotta try learning a fork grip. I've already have ideas thanks to dgdave I just need to practice more since annying is easy but controllable according to him.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with your thumb idea if you mean that for a RHBH throw you keep the thumb pointed forward towards the target at the rip and at that point the direction of the pressure of the thumb is to the right instead of forward. Then I have more wrist down to the end of the wrist extension while sitting in my chair. Thank you very much sir! You've saved my day. I'll see if I can repeat this with actual throws too. I had no luck whatsoever trying to push with the thumb forward or down against my index finger or both simultaneously. Pushing to the right helps tremendously sitting down. I'm crossing fingers that it also does help with actual throws.

I'm not sure if the thumb has much of an effect on the wrist opening.

Where do you put the pinky? For me it seemed to be equally easy with a Wizard to curl it to my palm compared to keeping the pinky on the corner of the rim and the wing. To me it seemed to be easiest to separate the middle and ring fingers. I got a sturdier sideways control of the disc and better initial position. I think that I need to grow thicker skin on my fingers before I can try to keep more fingers on the corner of the rim and wing like dgdave related what Scott Stokely has taught. In the meantime I need to see again the Climo video and try out different versions of the fork grip. I just had no luck with the pinky on the rim. I never got clean releases. My drivers fluttered and sometimes annied due to the unclean release.

Edit: Double oops! It hought that this video was another earlier Climo instructional video on grip. http://youtube.com/watch?v=vAV8kKURKaw
I also wrote incorrectly in the last paragraph because I wasn't talking about a fork grip but a variation of the fan grip. I'm too tired. Excuse me.

[Timko]

I was going to post this on Saturday, but time from me...

I was experimenting with the thumb orientation stuff, and found that pushing down with the thumb helped with the nose down trajectory. Furthermore, the "snapping" of the thumb to the right (while still pushing down) was allowing me to throw some bomb hyzer flips, and to throw some very stable (spirits) quite straight from a wing flat orientation.

[daniebl2]

I just got from some more practice today.

I was trying the modified fork grip and thumb orientation.

I agree with your results Furthur, as I got the exact same results.

Also,
The modified fork grip is working wonderfully for me. I did check the grips article and my version is not shown. - It's basicaly the fork grip, but with the pinky tucked into the hand and under the disc....the ring finger is at the bottom against the rim of the disc with the middle finger stacked on top......no flutter what so ever. The only bad thing is that I find my self switching back when throwing my putters...maybe I'm just not used to it yet?

Also,
I really got a hold of one....it's the first time I've ever had a disc abruptly flip @ 275 ft...I was amazed....I knew this throw had some stink on it, but man was it cooking...and then, whack! I mighty oak reached out and grabbed it, I swear the branch moved down 2 feet just to grab my disc. I was soooo mad. - I expect the throw was around 425. I'm normally throw approximatly 350.
Anyways, I'm going out again tomorrow after work, maybe then...maybe then.

[JR]

I just got from some more practice today.

I was trying the modified fork grip and thumb orientation.

I agree with your results Furthur, as I got the exact same results.

Also,
The modified fork grip is working wonderfully for me. I did check the grips article and my version is not shown. - It's basicaly the fork grip, but with the pinky tucked into the hand and under the disc....the ring finger is at the bottom against the rim of the disc with the middle finger stacked on top......no flutter what so ever. The only bad thing is that I find my self switching back when throwing my putters...maybe I'm just not used to it yet?

Also,
I really got a hold of one....it's the first time I've ever had a disc abruptly flip @ 275 ft...I was amazed....I knew this throw had some stink on it, but man was it cooking...and then, whack! I mighty oak reached out and grabbed it, I swear the branch moved down 2 feet just to grab my disc. I was soooo mad. - I expect the throw was around 425. I'm normally throw approximatly 350.
Anyways, I'm going out again tomorrow after work, maybe then...maybe then.

Furthur and danielb2: All I can say is congratulations and thanks for bringing proof to the table about the thumb part. Can't wait to try it

IIRC I used the exact grip you used danielb2 and it was making callouses on the right side of the tip of my ring finger.

[black udder]

For what it's worth...

I tried using the Climo grip and it just wasn't good for me. I guess I don't push down hard enough with my index finger, so the discs kept coming out a tad early. The lines weren't bad, but I didn't get the distance or feel of a solid throw.

What I did was move to the birdie grip. This helps me in two ways. It allows me the strong grip of the power grip and also prevents me from ripping off the middle finger. Again, because I have a tendency to weaken my index finger grip at times, I would rip off the middle finger which would a) Hurt my middle finger (by torquing it) and b) would change the flight slightly.

I can get the same power with the birdie grip and some people get better control with it.

Not that it's better or worse, but for now at least, it's resolved a couple of my problems.

In addition, I was gripping the disc good and firm in the back swing and pulling throw with it good and tight. I've since then modified it to be really loose and tighten the grip as I flick/snap my wrist right before the release.

Right now aim and lines are pretty terrible, but you can certainly feel the power and potential of the throw. I'm inclined to believe that I now know what I have to do to reach my potential distance - I just need to actually learn how to do it consistently.

[daniebl2]

Just got back from some more practice.....and it was very good but not great. I've managed to pick up 25-30 ft...which brings me solidly into the next plataeu (375-385) if I'm not mistaken.
Still...not an ounce of flutter, even throwing a 168 Kite at full force. I even started throwing my putters (avairs) with very good accuracy...so I quess what I'm saying is the grip is a keeper at least for me, and I would encourage others to try it...especially if you have small hands.
However, I'm still a little disappointed, as I thought I had found the Holy Grail....which would have gotten my to the majic 425 and up range.....baby steps I guess.

[JR]

Just got back from some more practice.....and it was very good but not great. I've managed to pick up 25-30 ft...which brings me solidly into the next plataeu (375-385) if I'm not mistaken.
Still...not an ounce of flutter, even throwing a 168 Kite at full force. I even started throwing my putters (avairs) with very good accuracy...so I quess what I'm saying is the grip is a keeper at least for me, and I would encourage others to try it...especially if you have small hands.
However, I'm still a little disappointed, as I thought I had found the Holy Grail....which would have gotten my to the majic 425 and up range.....baby steps I guess.

That kind of immediate jump in distance is always wonderful. As long as you can keep it. That kind of drive distance allows for doing well in the open division if the drives are accurate and you have a complete game. I don't know when Climo said that accurate 350' drives allow you to compete against anyone. Disc technology has advanced but your distance is very respectable. Not everyone gets there.

How much nose down do the discs have when they are flat in the air? How high are the discs at their highest with which discs? Maybe you can gain more distance by changing flight lines now that your form and maybe power has changed.

I detailed the grip I used today in the post I wrote today at http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/vi ... php?t=4277
I did not reach nearly the kinds of distances I have but the wind was terrible and I didn't hit good lines and am recuperating from flu and slept 3 hours too litlle. I was messing with most parts of my form changing most things to see differences.

In the end the lack of D probably comes down to getting the lines right and the lack of sharp acceleration near the hit. I tried to accelerate late but either I was too fast in the arm speed already or controlling previous parts of my form took my attention and didn't allow for good elbow chopping. Or the grip simply is shorter than my previous power grip that doesn't use thumb as aggressively. It's way too early to tell. I need a lot more tries to have a meaningful comparison. Without the wind. I can't say how much distance difference there is because the temps are lower than during the summer. Maybe the rain did something too. I had some partial slippages that I noticed.

[JR]

Although I had a bit of advancement today with keeping the wrist down till the rip I'm not satisfied because I'm not near the best players in the nose down angle I get. This is with more conventional grips.

I came up with a possible solution. I've already thrown today and gotta rest. I'll post results after I get the chance to try this one out. This grip I came up with may be old news but I don't remember reading about it.

How would you like a grip that keeps your muscles very loose even with dozens of degrees of hyzer or anhyzer should you want to create OAT that way? Add to that plenty of nose down angle simultaneously with loose muscles. Appetizing?

Stand up straight and relax. Look down at your hand. That is your loosest position in the muscles in the arm. I tried to come up with a way that deviates as little as possible from this relaxed position. Here's what I did: I raised my arm to front parallel to the ground and rotated my arm counterclockwise so that the palm was facing ground and the thumb points to the left. I pushed a Teerex into my hand from the front trying to keep my fingers and wrist in the relaxed position. I pushed the rim to the base of the thumb as close to the thumb as possible for keeping the nose down by having as tight a grip as possible between the thumb and the base of the index finger with muscles still quite loose. I put my thumb under the disc and grabbed the rim. This might be easiest with wide rimmed drivers. I don't know. I spread the rest of the fingers on top of the disc and straightened the middle joints so that the fingers touch the top of the disc with their whole bottom area. Adjust the spread of the top fingers for sturdiest grip and find out how your thumb gets the tightest grip of the rim. I don't know if having the thumb straight under the flight plate would give a cleaner release or looser grip with decreased distance. Experiment.

Check how loose the muscles are all through the throw even with huge twists sideways from the wrist and nose down angles with bending the wrist down. Nose down angle shouldn't be a problem because now the wrist is bending down along the primary axis of motion for the wrist instead of side to side in the secondary axis. If one prioritizes the axis by range of motion. I can get 60 degrees of nose down with loose muscles in the rip position. Sounds sexy doesn't it?

The snags in this grip that I've found out so far are initially difficulty in keeping the angles accurate. That's because here my usual limberness comes into play. This way around my muscles are loose and travel a lot with minimal resistance so guiding the hand all through the throwing motion keeping all the angles right might take a while to learn. Success depends on the thumb I presume. Release and holding on to the disc makes or breaks this technique. Snapping happens with side to side motion which might kill the usefulness of this grip for maximum distances. On the other hand for those that can't keep the wrist down enough this could at least help to see how flight lines change with proper angles even when throwing high. No stalls and straighter flights. Takers?

Please share your experiences. I hope this isn't unhealthy. Try this at your own risk.

[daniebl2]

How much nose down do the discs have when they are flat in the air? How high are the discs at their highest with which discs? Maybe you can gain more distance by changing flight lines now that your form and maybe power has changed.

Nose down angle? I've always been a little confused by that term.....my pivot / release angle is maybe 20 degree nose down.
It's always been hard for me to tell when watching the disc in flight.
I can always see the top or back edge during the initial part of the throw..since I generally throw low. My drives are always line drives.....they climb to maybe 20-25ft before they flip....at that point: I maybe get 20-30 degrees nose down. Is that what your reffering too?

[JR]

How much nose down do the discs have when they are flat in the air? How high are the discs at their highest with which discs? Maybe you can gain more distance by changing flight lines now that your form and maybe power has changed.

Nose down angle? I've always been a little confused by that term.....my pivot / release angle is maybe 20 degree nose down.
It's always been hard for me to tell when watching the disc in flight.
I can always see the top or back edge during the initial part of the throw..since I generally throw low. My drives are always line drives.....they climb to maybe 20-25ft before they flip....at that point: I maybe get 20-30 degrees nose down. Is that what your reffering too?

Exactly if by nose you mean the closest part of the disc to the basket and the disc flips to horizontal position. In this case the nose is the closest part of the disc to the basket. It needs to be lower than the tail of the disc. Looking from the side the angle of the disc compared to the horizon is nose 20-30 degrees below the horizon for you when the disc flips. And 20 degrees at the rip. Note that I'm not 100 % certain about the terminology.

If you mean that the nose is the to the right of the edge of the disc from the closest part of the disc to the basket then this is not what's meant by having the nose down. This is called anhyzer angle. So the disc is rotated 20 degrees clockwise from the horizon. That's not helping as much as is optimal to geting the front of the disc below the horizon.

Judging by that you said that always throw line drives I assume you flip the disc to flat and the front of the disc is below the rear of the disc. I'm so glad that you can have so much nose down. I'm stuck at 3-5 degrees at best and usually only 2 when throwing at the height the discl eaves my hand. So I can really appreciate how important getting as much nose down as you do is.

I'm not sure if that much angle is necessary for so low throws you are doing. I'd try to give as much nose down angle as you do now but raise the throw in 3' increments to see where your current maximum distance is.

[daniebl2]

Exactly if by nose you mean the closest part of the disc to the basket and the disc flips to horizontal position. In this case the nose is the closest part of the disc to the basket. It needs to be lower than the tail of the disc. Looking from the side the angle of the disc compared to the horizon is nose 20-30 degrees below the horizon for you when the disc flips. And 20 degrees at the rip. Note that I'm not 100 % certain about the terminology.

That is what I'm reffering to.

I'm not sure if that much angle is necessary for so low throws you are doing. I'd try to give as much nose down angle as you do now but raise the throw in 3' increments to see where your current maximum distance is.

I would agree with you that I'm now throwing too low or with not enough hyzer....if I get a good rip the disc will flip and hit the ground before it flexes. I still need to get consistant with the new technique. I did throw again today, and the distance is still there so I'm happy.

[JR]

Exactly if by nose you mean the closest part of the disc to the basket and the disc flips to horizontal position. In this case the nose is the closest part of the disc to the basket. It needs to be lower than the tail of the disc. Looking from the side the angle of the disc compared to the horizon is nose 20-30 degrees below the horizon for you when the disc flips. And 20 degrees at the rip. Note that I'm not 100 % certain about the terminology.

That is what I'm reffering to.

I'm not sure if that much angle is necessary for so low throws you are doing. I'd try to give as much nose down angle as you do now but raise the throw in 3' increments to see where your current maximum distance is.

I would agree with you that I'm now throwing too low or with not enough hyzer....if I get a good rip the disc will flip and hit the ground before it flexes. I still need to get consistant with the new technique. I did throw again today, and the distance is still there so I'm happy.

It's good to hear. Flat discs flex out a lot slower than domey discs if they are equally low speed overstable. SOLF wil take forever to flex and needs huge height as an example. Check out domey discs that are 3 or more for LSS on the JFC.

[JR]

In the thread Try this for getting the nose down Bradley Walker mentioned crutches. The grip that I described in an earlier post in this thread was certainly that. I got that grip to work to show that it can display what nose down looks like. As luck would have it I probably won't need this as a crutch for getting the nose down with real throws. I have to try it on proper throws when I can. I'm able to play on sunday at the earliest.

I think I have found the cure to raising wrist in the middle of the throw. I have at least a partial solution that needs powered throws to verify the usefulness of my finding. I threw at my couch from 10' with maybe about 35' of power. At first I used the grips I've used so far and mostly the nose was flat. That is horrible considering that I putt from farther away than I put power into these throws.

Pushing down on the flight plate with the thumb simultaneously pushing towards the side against the fingers under the disc was only a partial solution to me and I couldn't get meaningful angles regardless of the power with the thumb. What helped me keep the nose down so that the discs were between 10 and 15 degrees nose down when in the air was tightening my grip with my index finger and pulling towards and down the rim at maybe around 45 degrees angle relative to vertical axis. When compared to what black udder wrote in his post in this thread pulling with the index finger seems to be the key to getting the wrist to stay down. In the words of Aaron D my grip mechanics weren't what they should have been.

I stood upright and the throws were done at constant shoulder height. This means that I finally could get enough nose down from the wrist only to have the disc in proper attitude in the air. I'm really itching to get to try my luck with real drives to see if I can keep the nose down with more power and start learning how I need to adjust the height I'm throwing to. And how that changes the arm plane and hyzer angles. With increased distance I expect less lateral movement in the flight path which is nice because there are lots of tunnels around here.

With all the grip variations I tried pulling down and towards the base of that finger worked well. All of these grips had the index finger against the rim. I haven't tried with fingers on the wing or below the rim yet. For the grips with the index finger on the rim the nose down angle was around the same although I didn't pay particular attention to that. I also didn't yet check muscle tension. Tightening my index finger naturally tightened my forearm muscles also. But the cost to arm speed should still be negligible even for me in comparison with the benefits of having true meaningful nose down angle on my throws. I have an injury that tightens my muscles with less finger stretching and powering than healthy people's muscles do.

Thanks guys!

Edit: I forgot to mention that the discs flew flat wihout hyzer or anhyzer.